Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

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 Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu

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MessageSujet: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe"   Ven 12 Mar 2010 - 16:06

Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe"
Aid Should go to Haitian Popular Organizations, not to Contractors or NGOs



Aid Should go to Haitian Popular Organizations, not to Contractors or NGOs
By Noam Chomsky and Keane Bhatt, Thursday, March 11, 2010


For decades, Noam Chomsky has been an analyst and activist working in support of the Haitian people. In addition to his revolutionary linguistics career at MIT, he has written, lectured and protested against injustice for 40 years. He is co-author, along with Paul Farmer and Amy Goodman of Getting Haiti Right This Time: The U.S. and the Coup. His analysis “The Tragedy of Haiti” from his 1993 book Year 501: The Conquest Continues is available for free online. This interview was conducted in late February 2010 by phone and email. The interviewer thanks Peter Hallward for his kind assistance. This was first published in ¡Reclama! magazine.


Keane Bhatt: Recently you signed a letter to the Guardian protesting the militarization of emergency relief. It criticized a prioritization of security and military control to the detriment of rescue and relief.

Noam Chomsky: I think there was an overemphasis in the early stage on militarization rather than directly providing relief. I don’t think it has any long-term significance...the United States has comparative advantage in military force. It tends to react to anything at first with military force, that’s what it’s good at. And I think they overdid it. There was more military force than was necessary; some of the doctors that were in Haiti, including those from Partners in Health who have been there for a long time, felt that there was an element of racism in believing that Haitians were going to riot and they had to be controlled and so on, but there was very little indication of that; it was very calm and quiet. The emphasis on militarization did probably delay somewhat the provision of relief. I went along with the general thrust of the petition that there was too much militarization.

KB: If this militarization of relief was not intentionally extreme but rather just a default response of the US, is it just serendipity that there is a massive troop presence available to manage the rapidly mounting popular protests post-earthquake? Surprisingly large, politicized group comprised of survivors has already mobilized around demanding Aristide’s return, French reparations instead of charity, and so on.

NC: So far, at least, I don’t know of any employment of the troops to subdue protests. It might come, but I suspect a more urgent concern is the impending disaster of the rainy season, terrible to contemplate.

KB: Regarding relief work, aside from Partners in Health, Al Jazeera noted that the Cuban medical team was the first to set up medical facilities among the debris and constitutes the largest contingent of medical workers in Haiti, something that preceded the earthquake. If their performance in Pakistan [earthquake of 2005] is any indicator, they will probably be the last to leave. Cuba seems to have an exemplary, decades-long conduct in foreign assistance.

NC: Well, the Cubans were already there before the earthquake. They had a couple hundred doctors there. And yes, they sent doctors very quickly; they had medical facilities there very quickly. Venezuela also sent aid quite quickly; Venezuela was also the first country and the only country at any scale to cancel totally the debt. There was considerable debt to Venezuela because of PetroCaribe, and it’s rather striking that Venezuela and Cuba were not invited to the donors’ meeting in Montreal.

Actually the prime minister of Haiti, Bellerive, went out of his way to thank three countries: the Dominican Republic, Cuba and Venezuela for their rapid provision of aid. What Al Jazeera said about Pakistan is quite correct. In that terrible earthquake a couple of years ago, the Cubans were really the only ones who went into the very difficult areas high up in the mountains where it’s very hard to live. They’re the ones who stayed after everyone else left. And none of that gets reported in the United States. But the fact of the matter is, whatever you think about Cuba, its internationalism is pretty dramatic. And the people who’ve been working in Haiti for years have been awestruck by Cuban medical aid as they were in Pakistan, in fact. That’s an old story. I mean, the Cuban contribution to the liberation of Africa is just overwhelming. And you can find that in scholarship, but the public doesn’t know anything about it.

KB: On that point, you’ve talked about how “states are not moral agents. They act in their own interests. And that means the interests of powerful forces within them.” How does the history of exemplary humanitarian work as Cuban state policy relate to that thought?

NC: Well, I think it’s just been a core part of the Cuban revolution to have a very high level of internationalism. I mean, these cases you’ve mentioned are cases in point, but the most extreme case was the liberation of Africa. Take the case of Angola for example, and there are real connections between Cuba and Angola—much of the Cuban population comes from Angola. But South Africa, with US support, after the fall of the Portuguese empire, invaded Angola and Mozambique to establish their own puppet regime there. They were trying to protect Namibia, to protect apartheid, and nobody did much about it; but the Cubans sent forces, and furthermore they sent black soldiers and they defeated a white mercenary army, which not only rescued Angola but it sent a shock throughout the continent—it was a psychic shock—white mercenaries were purported to be invincible, and a black army defeated them and sent them back fleeing into South Africa. Well that gave a real shot in the arm to the liberation movements, and it also was a lesson to the white South Africans that the end is coming. They can’t just hope to subdue the continent on racist grounds. Now, it didn’t end the wars. The South African attacks in Angola and Mozambique continued until the late 1980s, with strong US support. And it was no joke. According to the UN estimates they killed a million and a half people in Angola and Mozambique, nothing slight. Nevertheless, the Cuban intervention had a huge effect, also on other countries of Africa. And one the most striking aspects of it is that they took no credit for it. They wanted credit to be taken by the nationalist movements in Africa. So in fact none of this was even known until an American researcher, Piero Gleijeses unearthed the evidence from the Cuban archives and African sources and published it in scholarly journals and a scholarly book, and it’s just an astonishing story but barely known—one out of a million people has ever heard of it.

KB: You mentioned the Venezuelan debt cancellation. At the same time, the G7 is in the process of eliminating bilateral debt. Why is that?

NC: Well they’re talking about it, yeah. The Venezuelans were first. And they just completely canceled the debt. G7 refused. In the Montreal meeting, they refused to even discuss it. Later, they indicated that they might do something. Maybe they’re embarrassed by the Venezuelan action. But I’m not sure how it’s playing out. As far as the IMF is concerned—the IMF is basically an offshoot of the US Treasury Department—they’ve talked about it but so far they have not agreed, as far as I can discover, to cancel the debt.

KB: Bellerive, Prime Minister of Haiti, thanked the Dominican Republic, Cuba and Venezuela. The DR has been lauded for its relief efforts: providing food, materials and medical care, for example. But at the same time there are reports from the border of Dominican troops forcibly deporting family members of Haitian patients and sometimes even the patients themselves, in Jimaní, for example. What is your take on these contrary developments taking place and is there any historical context that you would like to add?

NC: Well, what the Dominican Republic does is up to Dominicans to decide, but the much more striking thing from my perspective, is that the United States has not brought in any—barely any refugees—even for medical treatment. And that was harshly condemned by the dean of the University of Miami Medical School who thought it was just criminal not to bring Haitians to Miami where there’s marvelous medical facilities while they have to do surgery with, you know, hacksaws in Haiti. And in fact one of the first US reactions to the earthquake was to send in the Coast Guard to ensure that there wouldn’t be any attempt to flee from Haiti. I mean, that’s atrocious. The United States is the richest country in the world, it’s right next door to Haiti. It should be offering every possible means of assistance to Haitians.

Furthermore there’s a little bit of background here. I mean, the earthquake in Haiti was a class-based catastrophe. It didn’t much harm the wealthy elite up in the hills, they were shaken but not destroyed. On the other hand the people who were living in the miserable urban slums, huge numbers of them, they were devastated. Maybe a couple hundred thousand were killed. How come they were living there? They were living there because of—it goes back to the French colonial system—but in the past century, they were living there because of US policies, consistent policies.

KB: You’re talking about the forcible decimation of peasant agriculture in the 1990s?

NC: It started with Woodrow Wilson. When Wilson invaded all of Hispaniola, Haiti and the DR, the Wilson invasion was pretty brutal in both parts of Hispaniola. But it was much worse in Haiti. And the reasons were very clearly stated.

KB: Racism.

NC: Yeah. The State Department said, well, the Dominicans have some European blood so they’re not quite so bad. But the Haitians are pure nigger. So Wilson sent the marines to disband the Haitian parliament because they wouldn’t permit US corporations to buy up Haitian lands. And he forced them to do it. Well, that’s one of the many atrocities and crimes. Just keeping to this, that accelerated the destruction of Haitian agriculture and the flight of people from the countryside to the cities. Now that continued under Reagan. Under Reagan, USAID and the World Bank set up very explicit programs, explicitly designed to destroy Haitian agriculture. They didn’t cover it up. They gave an argument that Haiti shouldn’t have an agricultural system, it should have assembly plants; women working to stitch baseballs in miserable conditions. Well that was another blow to Haitian agriculture, but nevertheless even under Reagan, Haiti was producing most of its own rice when Clinton came along.

When Clinton restored Aristide—Clinton of course supported the military junta, another little hidden story...he strongly supported it in fact. He even allowed the Texaco Oil Company to send oil to the junta in violation of presidential directives; Bush Sr. did so as well—well, he finally allowed the president to return, but on condition that he accept the programs of Marc Bazin, the US candidate that he had defeated in the 1990 election. And that meant a harsh neoliberal program, no import barriers. That means that Haiti has to import rice and other agricultural commodities from the US from US agribusiness, which is getting a huge part of its profits from state subsidies. So you get highly subsidized US agribusiness pouring commodities into Haiti; I mean, Haitian rice farmers are efficient but nobody can compete with that, so that accelerated the flight into the cities. And it wasn’t that they didn’t know it was going to happen. USAID was publishing reports in 1995 saying, yes this is going to destroy Haitian agriculture and that’s a good thing. And you get the flight into the cities and you get food riots in 2008, because they can’t produce their own food. And now you get this class-based catastrophe. After this history—it’s only a tiny piece of itthe United States should be paying massive reparations, not just aid. And France as well. The French role is grotesque.

KB: May I ask, regarding Aristide’s languishing in exile, was he right to go back to Haiti in 1994 in the way that he did, with US troops? Also, was he right to agree, under enormous pressure of course, to the neoliberal reforms laid out in the Paris Accords?

NC: Well, I happened to be in Haiti almost at that time—1993. I was there for a while; this was the peak of the terror. And I’ve been in a lot of awful places in the world. Some of the worst, in fact. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like the misery and the terror that was going on in Haiti under the junta, with Clinton’s backing at that time. And there was a lot of discussion, I talked for example to the late Father Gerard Jean-Juste, one of the most popular figures in Haiti, who the government recently forced out, he was then underground in a church but Haitian friends took me to him. He was very close to large parts of the population. I talked to labor leaders who’d been beaten and tortured but were willing to talk, and to activists and others. And what most of them said is, Father Jean-Juste for example, what he said is, “Look, I don’t want a marine invasion, I think it’s a bad idea. But on the other hand,” he said, “my people, the people in the slums—La Saline, Cite Soleil and so on, they just can’t take it anymore.” He said, “the torture is too awful, the terror is too awful. They’ll accept anything that’ll put an end to it.” And that was the dilemma. I don’t have an answer to that.

KB: Was Aristide wrong to argue against calls (made by some of his more militant supporters) for armed struggle inside Haiti to restore democracy after the 1991 coup?

NC: Not in my opinion. Armed struggle would have led to a horrendous slaughter.

KB: On February 17th, Sarkozy was greeted to street protests by thousands of Haitians holding up images of Aristide, demanding his return, and demanding reparations for what the French extorted in exchange for recognizing Haiti’s independence. At that same address, Preval was shouted down and he withdrew into his jeep. With this kind of sentiment brewing in Haiti right now, do you see Aristide’s return as an important priority, or is it something that might be desirable but not that pressing?


NC: Well, the answer to that question is going to be given in Washington. The United States and France, the two traditional torturers of Haiti, essentially kidnapped Aristide in 2004 after having blocked any international aid to the country under very dubious pretexts, not credible grounds, which of course extremely harmed this fragile economy. There was chaos and the US and France and Canada flew in, kidnapped Aristide—they said they rescued him, they actually kidnapped him—they flew him off to Central Africa, his party Fanmi Lavalas is banned, which probably accounts for the very low turnout in the recent elections, and the United States has been trying to keep Aristide not only from Haiti, but from the entire hemisphere.

KB: By which way is Aristide compelled to remain exiled? How exactly is his persona non grata status in the hemisphere maintained and by whom? What is preventing him from flying into a sympathetic country near Haiti, like Venezuela, for example?

NC: He might be able to go to Venezuela, but if he tried to go to the Dominican Republic, for example, they wouldn’t let him in. And there’s good reason for that. International affairs is very much like the mafia, and the small storekeeper doesn’t offend the Godfather. It’s too dangerous. We can pretend it’s otherwise, but that’s the way it is. There was one country, I think it was Jamaica if I remember correctly, that did allow Aristide in, over serious US pressure and protest. And not a lot of countries are willing to take the risk of offending the United States. It’s a dangerous, violent superpower. I don’t have to tell you, you know the history of the Dominican Republic. I don’t have to tell you about it—that’s the way it works.

KB: Using, as you’ve said, the historical US legacy in the DR, can we turn to recent Dominican history? As this humanitarian aid is provided on behalf of the DR, and it fills in the vacuum left by a weak Haitian state, if we go back to the events leading up to the coup of 2004, it worked under US aegis to actively destabilize Haiti by training the paramilitary rebels, Guy Philippe and Louis Jodel Chamblain…

NC: I know. And providing a base for them.

KB: Is there some kind of a contradiction to provide charity for people who you’ve actually worked to dismantle and destabilize?

NC: Well, you can call it a contradiction if you like, but it’s also a contradiction for Sarkozy and Clinton to appear in Haiti without abject apologies for the terrible crimes that France and the U.S. under Clinton, particularly, have carried out against Haiti. But they don’t do it. The head of Toyota has to go to Congress and apologize for hours because some people were killed by Toyota cars, but does Clinton have to go and apologize for what he did to Haiti? He dealt a death blow. Does Sarkozy have to apologize for the fact that Haiti was France’s richest colony and a source of a lot of France’s wealth and they destroyed the country and then posed an indemnity as a price for liberating themselves, which the country was never able to get out of?

A couple of years ago, in 2002 I think, Aristide appealed to France, to Chirac, to pay some remuneration for the huge debt that Haiti had to pay them…

KB: Twenty-one billion dollars…

NC: Yeah, for this huge debt that Haiti had to pay them. And they did set up a commission led by Regis Debray, a former radical. And the commission said that France has no need to give any compensation at all. In other words, first we rob and then destroy them, and then when they ask for a little bit of help, we kick them in the face. It’s not surprising.

KB: Although at the same time there are sources that say that while France put up an indifferent front, it was actually worried about a head of state bringing a legal case with overwhelming documentary evidence for international arbitration.

NC: Well, they really didn’t have to worry, because the way power politics works, the World Court can’t do anything. Look, there’s one country in the world at the moment which has refused to accept World Court decision—that’s the United States. Is anybody going to do anything about it?

KB: You mentioned Clinton, now UN special envoy to Haiti, who intends to woo foreign investors and continue on a low-wage textile focus for Haitian economic development. The lens of neoliberal economist Paul Collier, special adviser to the UN in 2009, dominates the UN perspective of Haiti. An advocate of sweatshop-led growth himself, he’s lavished praise on the much-resented MINUSTAH occupation force there, and has even said that the Dominican Republic "is not engaged in the sort of activities, such as clandestine support for guerrilla groups, that beset many other fragile states.” Can a true humanitarian like Paul Farmer—representing a different development model based on fair wages, public health, strengthening the Haitian state—influence the UN as deputy special envoy?

NC: It's a hard choice. I don't blame him for trying. We live in this world, not another one that we'd prefer, and sometimes it's necessary to follow painful paths if we hope to provide at least a little help for suffering people. Like Father Jean-Juste and the marines.

KB: You’ve talked about how the media created an artificial distinction between the South American ‘Bad Left’ and ‘Good Left,’ omitting Brazil's important collaboration with Venezuela in the interest of maintaining this view. However, with respect to Haiti, hasn’t Brazil legitimately earned a secure place within the ‘Good Left’? A center-left government of the South has spearheaded the MINUSTAH occupation and has pledged to increase its presence, after taking it over from the imperial architects of the coup (US, France, Canada). What factors made it so vigorous in supporting another deposed president of an equally geopolitically-unimportant country in recent times (Zelaya of Honduras)?

NC: Good questions. I haven't seen anything useful on Brazil's decisions on these matters.

KB: Any comments on the US media regarding Haiti following the earthquake? For example, Pat Robertson’s ‘pact with the devil,’ David Brooks’ ‘progress-resistant culture,’ pleas with transnational capital to create more sweatshops (Kirstof), Aristide being a despot and a cheat (Jon Lee Anderson). Even Amy Wilentz has compared Aristide to Duvalier in the New York Times.

NC: It's been mainly awful, but I haven't kept a record. The worst part is ignoring our own disgraceful role in helping to create the catastrophe, and consequent refusal to react as any decent person should—with massive reparations, directed to popular organizations. Same with France.

KB: I guess my final question is for the future: there have been a discouraging two decades, from 1990-2010, about the popular mobilization for political change in Haiti, and how to proceed, and I guess now that the Haitian people have struggled so hard through parliamentary democracy for 25 years and have so little to show for it, what are the lessons learned and possible strategies now that they’ve exhausted this parliamentary, democratic approach? Two coups d’etat and thousands tortured and murdered in this process.

NC: The lessons are, unfortunately, that a small weak country that is facing an extremely hostile and very violent superpower will not make much progress unless there’s a strong solidarity movement within the superpower that will restrain its actions. With more support within the United States, I think the Haitian efforts could have succeeded.

And that applies right now. Take the aid that’s coming in. There is aid coming in—we have to show we’re nice people and so on. But the aid ought to be going to Haitian popular organizations. Not to contractors, not to NGOs—to Haitian popular organizations, and they’re the ones that should be deciding what to do with it. Well you know, that’s not the agenda of G7. They don’t want popular organizations; they don’t like popular movements; they don’t like democracy for that matter. What they want is for the rich and powerful to run things. Well, if there was a strong solidarity movement in the United States and the world, it could change that.

-----------------------------------------------------
Brief Chronology of Events in Haiti

adapted from Damming the Flood: Haiti, Aristide and the Politics of Containment, Courtesy Peter Hallward

August 14, 1791 A slave uprising begins in northern Saint-Domingue

Februrary 4, 1794 Abolition of French colonial slavery

January 1, 1804 Saint-Domingue is renamed Haiti, and declares itself independent of France

1825 France recognizes Haitian independence for the payment of 150 million francs (later reduced to 90 million as compensation for lost property)

1915-34 The United States (under Woodrow Wilson) invades and occupies Haiti

September 22, 1957 Francois Duvalier (‘Papa Doc’) becomes president

April 21, 1971 Francois Duvalier dies and is succeeded by his son Jean-Claude (‘Baby Doc’)

February 7, 1986 ‘Baby Doc’ is pushed out of Haiti by a popular uprising; General Henry Namphy takes power

December 16, 1990 Jean-Bertrand Aristide is elected with 67% of the vote; his prime minister is Rene Preval

September 30, 1991 General Raoul Cedras overthrows Aristide, who goes into exile; over the next few years several thousands of Aristide’s supporters are killed

Summer 1993 The paramilitary death squad FRAPH is formed, led by Toto Constant and Jodel Chamblain

September 19, 1994 US soldiers occupy Haiti for the second time; Aristide returns from exile

Early 1995 Aristide disbands Haiti’s armed forces

Mid-1995 Aristide’s party Fanmi Lavalas wins legislative elections

December 17, 1995 Rene Preval is elected with 88% of the vote

Late 1996 Formation of Fanmi Lavalas in opposition to ex-Lavalas faction

May 21, 2000 Fanmi Lavalas wins landlide victories at all levels of government; opponents form a US-backed coalition called the Convergence Democratique

November 26, 2000 Aristide is re-elected with 92% of the vote

July 28, 2001 First of many commando raids on police stations and other government facilities by ex-soliers based in the Dominican Republic, led by Guy Philippe

December 17, 2001 Ex-soldiers attack the presidential palace, provoking popular reprisals against the offices of parties belonging to Convergence Democratique

April 2003 Aristide asks France to repay the money it extorted from Haiti

January 1, 2004 Haiti celebrates bicentenary of independence from France

February 5, 2004 Full-scale insurgency begins, Chamblain overruns Cap Haitien

February 29, 2004 Aristide is forced onto a US jet and flown to the Central African Republic

March 2004 US troops occupy Haiti for a third time, interim government is formed with Gerard Latortue as P.M., the Lancet estimates thousands killed by police and anti-Lavalas paramilitaries

June 2004 US-led force is replaced by a UN stabilization mission (MINUSTAH)

February 7, 2006 Preval wins presidential elections with 51% of the vote

January 12, 2010 Catastrophic earthquake rocks Port-au-Prince

--------

See also Jafrikayiti's 2010 (LAFIMEN) HAITIAN HISTORY CALENDAR (free download of English, French and Kreyol versions):

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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Sam 13 Mar 2010 - 18:30

Jafrikayiti ekri nan yon lòt pòst:

Citation :
Manti fè san tan ap galope, yon sèl jou laverite trape l!

Loraj la (Thunder) gwonde paske Peter Hallward di verite li pa ta renmen tande..., epoutan, se repete Peter Hallward ap repete sa Ayisyen parèy Thunder ap di depi dikdantan. Se sou baz analiz lojik ki chita sou reyalite verifyab Peter Hallward ekri sa li ekri a. Si yon moun pa kite prejije klas vegle li, nan pwen fason pou ou pa rekonèt verite istorik Hallward layite la yo.

Mwen di nou verite se tankou Lafimen - ou pa ka toufel ! W ap rele anmwey pou Hallward...men Chomsky

Mouche Ja Lajan Kay Aristide, (Ja-frik-kay-titid)

Mwen padone ni Hallward, ni Chomsky paske pa genyen youn nan mesye sa yo kite viv dezas lavalas lan, yo petèt senpleman pran nan toubiyon pwopagann ke Aristide te mete sou pye an. M ap repete w ankò, tèks Hallward se yon pwopagann ki maske malman dèyè yon rezime istwa byase peyi Dayiti.

Aristide genyen yon talan ke Bondye ba li, si wou tande sa l ap di sèlman men wou pa sou teren pou w verifye, li fò difisil pou w pa kwè sa l ap di yo. Men sa Aristide di nan bouch, pa sòti nan kè l; sa li preche se pa sa ke li pratike.

Tou 2 mesye sa yo, te mèt te genyen tout plòm posib, yo te mèt te genyen tout entèlijans posib, men nan zafè Ayiti ak rejim lavalas an, yo wè nwa.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 16:17

Gwonde gwonde ou konptriyòt! vle pa vle, yon jou tout manti gen pou kaba. Nan pwen mwayen fè limanite aksepte koudeta kont yon gouvènman lejitim kòm yon pratik demokratik osnon nòmal.

Se pa opinyon Hallward ak Chomsky ki pi enpòtan. Gade nan direksyon lakay, eseye idantifye yon chanpyon nan mitan sila yo ki te patisipe nan koudeta bisantnè a. Souple, eseye site youn nan yo ki merite e ki ka jwenn konfyans popilasyon an.

Si ou pa ka site youn, jouk jodi 14 mas 2010 la, souple, di nou nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan 'vòlè' eleksyon 2000 yo?

Pou kisa moun "san non" sa a pa ka genyen eleksyon jouk jounen jodi a ?
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 20:57

HALLWARD te ka genyen "20" plom;CHOMSKY limenm se "mil" plom li genyen.
Thunder,
Dapre sa w di,ou lan trantèn ou?
Sa vle di ke CHOMSKY ap etidye AYITI ke w po t ko menm fèt e ke papa w te kapab timoun piti.
Mwen asire ke w pa konnen Ayiti pi byen ke CHOMSKY.
Chomsky se yon nonm ke menm yon jounal tankou NEW YORK TIMES te deklare lan yon "boutad" ke li se petèt ameriken ki pi entelijan ki ekziste.
Li liv misye an ki se yon chedèv ki rele "MANUFACTURED CONSENT"
Misye se pi gwo lengwis ki ekziste sou tè an,misye se "pap" lengwistik.
Pou w ta di ke w konnen Ayiti pase NOAM CHOMSKY,bliye sa.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 21:12

Ja-Frik,

Wi! m ap kontinye gwonde toutotan ke nou vle pase Aristide kòm Ti Jezi nan po krab. Pat genyen oken koudeta kont oken gov't "lejitim" an 2004. Peyi an te senpleman bouke ak yon bann vòlò ak asasen ki te pran pouvwa an gwo ponyèt. Vwala! Kesyon ke w poze a, se yon bèl kesyon pou w ta poze Aristide. Kont ki moun ke li ta p fè tout magouy, kont mal taye, konte dèyè do lalwa, anplwaye Ti Guy pou chanje bwat bilten pou li? Se yon bèl kesyon, sèl bagay wou mande move moun nan li.

Moun ki kont Aristide pa enterese m, paske menm jan ak lòt moun sa yo mwen gen dwa kont Aristide men mwen genyen dwa pa genyen menm objektif ak yo. Mwen pa la pou defann kikseswa, mwen la pou m defann Ayiti. ARISTIDE fè plis mal sou Ayiti ke pifò moun ke w ap pale yo.

Retire prejije klas nan zye w pou w ka wè klè. Wè Ayiti anvan w wè klas ti kòk, si se pa sa n ap kondane pou nou rete konsa.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 21:22

Joel a écrit:
HALLWARD te ka genyen "20" plom;CHOMSKY limenm se "mil" plom li genyen.
Thunder,
Dapre sa w di,ou lan trantèn ou?
Sa vle di ke CHOMSKY ap etidye AYITI ke w po t ko menm fèt e ke papa w te kapab timoun piti.
Mwen asire ke w pa konnen Ayiti pi byen ke CHOMSKY.
Chomsky se yon nonm ke menm yon jounal tankou NEW YORK TIMES te deklare lan yon "boutad" ke li se petèt ameriken ki pi entelijan ki ekziste.
Li liv misye an ki se yon chedèv ki rele "MANUFACTURED CONSENT"
Misye se pi gwo lengwis ki ekziste sou tè an,misye se "pap" lengwistik.
Pou w ta di ke w konnen Ayiti pase NOAM CHOMSKY,bliye sa.

Li stil wè nwa nan koze lavalas ki t ap koupe frache an Ayiti. Kòman pou Chomsky ta fè konnen Ayiti pase m pandan ke mwen menm mwen te viv li. Misye ka genyen plis teyori, men tònè kraka m, misyte pa genyen pli pratik pase m.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 22:05

Non se pa vre!
0u pa gen pratik "AYITI" pase CHOMSKY.
Misye pa tankou mesye ki di yo se entelektyel ann AYITI yo.Misye te ann AYITI pandan premye koudeta a ,an kontak ak oganizasyon popilè yo.
Se misye ki te premye di ke FRAPH se yon "fwon" CIA.Mwen te tande misye te di sa sou yon "show" sou "PACIFICA RADIO".
Misye te menm di poukisa CIA te fome FRAPH.Se te pou mete presyon sou ARISTIDE.Ou byen Aristide te aksepte kondisyon pou retou li an ou byen yo t ap detwi tout oganizasyon popile yo.
paske misye se "mèt" mo,misye te gen yon ekspresyon espesyal pou sa.
Misye t ap di sa an 1993,se te peryod le retou an t ap diskite.
Mwen sonje tou ke misye te di ke mesye CLINTON YO TE OKOURAN DE AKTIVITE FRAPH yo,PA BLIYE SE TE AN1993 WI!

Pa gen tankou CHOMSKY.Se yon moun inik.Se yon moun ki ta ka ize "brain" li pou li fè milyon,li gen kapasite pou sa,men li pase vi l pou li "fight,the good fight"
Kwe mwen ou pa gen "pratik" AYITI plis ke CHOMSKY









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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 22:27

Eske li te tounen nan ane 2000-2004 yo ? Eske li konnen chimè "dòmi nan bwa"? "bale wouze"? JPP? KOMIKS? BAZ KAMEWOUN? LAME KANIBAL? Kondò? ...lajan woy-woy? ...

Si li pa konnen youn nan sa yo, li wè nwa. ...Li pa genyen ase pratik?
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Dim 14 Mar 2010 - 23:51

Mwen mande Thunder yon kesyon senp: "souple, di nou nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan 'vòlè' eleksyon 2000 yo?"

Tankou nou tout ka wè sa, Thunder koule, li pa reponn.

E si nou ta chanje kesyon an: "souple, di nou nan men ki kandida George W. Bush te swadizan 'vòlè' eleksyon 2000 yo?"

Repons: Al Gore
Referans: How George W. Bush Stole The 2000 Election (VIDEO)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy48bRHpGwo
http://www.impeachbush.tv/el2000/ (TEXT)

Kesyon: Pou ki sa yo pa ka site non moun ki ekivalan Al Gore nan eleksyon ki te fèt Ayiti yo?

Repons: pa gen pyès kandida ki te gen mwatye, nan mwatye popilarite Aristide alepok.

Referans: Haitian general election, 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_general_election,_2000
An Excuse to Destabilize Haiti’s Democracy
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/63/63_15.htm

Citation :
The May 2000 elections saw Haitians choose between almost 30,000 candidates, 19 senators, 83 deputies, 133 mayors and 7000 local assembly representatives. With the participation of 60% of Haiti’s four million registered voters, it was the largest voter turnout since Aristide’s overwhelming victory during the 1990 election.[size=12]6
The day after voting was completed, international observers declared the polling to be free and fair.
The Organization of American States (OAS), which observed the elections, told CNN: "we observed no major irregularities." Even the U.S. State Department congratulated Haiti on the elections, which it said were held "in a persuasive atmosphere of nonviolence and high voter participation."[size=12]7
But that was before the results were known.
Following the June 1 announcement of the results (which reported the landslide victory for Aristide’s Fanmi Lavalas movement), the OAS Electoral Observation Mission made a public statement criticizing the tabulation of votes for a handful of the 7000+ seats.
Although the OAS was deeply involved in election preparations and was obviously aware of the methodology being employed, it protested the case of eight senatorial seats, arguing that there should have been a run-off vote before the Lavalas candidates were declared the winners.[size=12]8
In any case, "Had the senate run-offs been held," writes the Robert Maguire, director of the Haiti program at Washington’s Trinity College,

"observers agreed, [Aristide’s Fanmi Lavalas party] would have won most, if not all, of the races, particularly since it is doubtful that the fractured opposition to Aristide would have been able to rally around a single opposition candidate in a run-off."[size=12]9
The day after the May election, opposition to Aristide had organized itself (with the help of the U.S. government-funded International Republican Institute) under the name "Democratic Convergence." Within a week, they called for a boycott of further elections.
Using the dispute over the elections as a convenient pretext, the Clinton Administration redirected U.S. aid away from the Haitian government and through NGOs. This severely limited the Haitian government’s ability to pursue its electoral agenda.
And, much of the redirected aid found it’s way to supporting the Haitian government’s unpopular opposition. Even according to U.S. government-sponsored polls, the so-called "Democratic Convergence" never registered more than 12% support among Haitians.[size=12]10
Nevertheless, it is this opposition’s narrative (shaped, as it was, by foreign government-sponsored patronage and training) that was largely adopted by the international community and the mainstream media. Bolstered by such support, the political opposition boycotted the November 2000 presidential elections.
The Democratic Convergence had good reason for their sudden allergy to democracy. A Gallop poll conducted in Haiti less than three weeks before the presidential elections found that less than 4% of Haitians expressed trust in the members of the Democratic Convergence.[size=12]11
And, there were good reasons that fewer than 1 in 25 Haitians trusted them. Many in the opposition expressed a desire to resurrect the murderous Haitian military, which has something like 50,000 Haitian skeletons in its closet.
Running virtually unopposed, Aristide received more than 90% of the vote.
Nevertheless, the unpopular Democratic Convergence continued to challenge Aristide’s mandate, even after the OAS had accepted Aristide’s plan to resolve the dispute over the eight senators during the May elections.[size=12]12
Illustrating their reverence for democracy, opposition leaders in the Democratic Convergence rejected the government’s compromise, announcing that it was highly unlikely that they would accept "a solution that leaves the top and bottom and most of the rest of Aristide’s power structure intact."[size=12]13
The U.S. government agreed and used the May 2000 elections as a pretext to trigger the devastating aid embargo against Haiti’s elected government.
While funnelling an average of $68 million a year to suitably complicit NGOs, a U.S. Agency for International Development official told reporters that Aristide’s administration "would never receive a dime of American aid."[size=12]14
Predictably, the aid embargo disabled the already-impoverished country’s economy. Without vital international aid, Haiti’s GDP growth fell from +1% to almost -2% between 2000 and 2001. By 2001, per capita GDP growth was approaching -4%.[size=12]15
Commenting on the effects of the embargo in the Lancet journal of medicine, researchers noted that:

"Although the Haitian government mismanaged foreign aid during the Duvalier family dictatorship, generous aid continued to flow during much of that time, mainly from the USA."
They added:

"when sanctions are leveled against an elected government, there is no collateral damage; ordinary citizens, who made the ‘wrong’ choice at the polls, are the targets. Their suffering and the social discord that necessarily ensues seem to be the intended result."[size=12]16
Some perspective might help the reader appreciate the scale and impact of the embargo.
Toronto, a city of about 2.5 million, has an annual municipal budget of well over $5 billion. Haiti, a country of about 8 million, has an annual federal budget of about $300 million.
The aid that was denied to the Haitian government by international donors—under false pretenses—totaled well over $500 million.
By mid-2001, Aristide had convinced seven of the eight senators at the center of the controversy regarding the May 2000 elections to resign. The term of the eighth expired shortly thereafter.

As Dr. Paul Farmer commented, "that should have been the end of the aid freeze if it was ever about the electoral process; yet it continued throughout Aristide’s tenure."
Clearly the election controversy was simply an excuse. As Farmer continued

"You’d think this might be newsworthy—the world’s most powerful nations join forces to block aid and humanitarian assistance to one of the poorest, but for three years this story was almost impossible to place in a mainstream journal of opinion."[size=12]17
During those three fateful years, the U.S., France and Canada worked fervently to bring down Haiti’s democratically-elected government. A central plank in their campaign—which came to fruition in the 2004 coup—was, as Farmer has remarked, "one of the most impressive and improbable propaganda exercises in contemporary politics": presenting "the government elected in 2000 as undemocratic and illegitimate."[size=12]18
Canada’s role in this exercise was aided greatly by the ignorance and cynicism of the Canadian media and by the propaganda produced by various CIDA-funded NGOs, including those based in Haiti and in Canada. If such supposed ‘humanitarian interventions’ are to be prevented in the future, we would do well to pay particular attention to the example of Haiti and to the use of its 2000 elections as a pretext for promoting destabilization and regime change.
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Se pa pale anpil, gen bon jan referans pou listwa. Chak moun oblije ranmase responsablite yo. Se popilasyon an meprize yon seri kandida se paske yo po ko janmmete devwa yo opwop pou yo merite konfyans li.

Sispann rayi! Travay mesyedam travay!
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Lun 15 Mar 2010 - 9:40

Alo Thunder? Kote ou ye, kouzen Loray Gwonde, nou pa tande ou...!?

Souple, di nou nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan 'vòlè' eleksyon 2000 yo?


Jaf
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Lun 15 Mar 2010 - 12:14

WI,

ARISTIDE te vole eleksyon 2000 yo,menm jan ke tè an plat,lalin se fwomaj e mwen genyen yon machin dezyem men ki pa janm pran pàn pou vann.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Mer 17 Mar 2010 - 1:04

jafrikayiti a écrit:
Alo Thunder? Kote ou ye, kouzen Loray Gwonde, nou pa tande ou...!?

Souple, di nou nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan 'vòlè' eleksyon 2000 yo?


Jaf

Mouche Kòfrefò Aristide,

Se pa tout tan ke mwen ekri sou fowòm nan, pafwa se nan dòmi m ke m koupe pou m ka jwenn yon ti tan pou m li e reponn. Mwen pa la a pou m defann kèlkeswa politisyen Ayisyen an, laplipa nan yo se menm kabrit Tomazo ak Aristide. Kimele m ak yo! ...Sa m ap defann nan se peyi Dayiti. Li lè li tan pou nou genyen yon eta de dwa, li lè li tan pou politisyen respekte figi pèp lan. Nou pat fè 1986, pou an 2000 pou eleksyon ap vòlò toujou. Ban m kite koze sila a e rantre dwat nan kesyon an.

Aristide pat genyen oken moun ki te kanpe an fas li nan eleksyon Novanm 2000 yo. Sa 21 Me a, se te yon bouyon ke menm "bon papa" nou Clinton pat ka dijere. M ap fè m remake ke lè yon kandida kèlkonk vòlò yon elkesyon, li pa vòlò l kont entèl oubyen entèl, li vòlò l kont tout moun kite al ranpli devwa sivik yo, li vòlò kont tout moun ke san yo te koule pou jodi a nou ka di ke n ap fè eleksyon nan peyi an. Li vòlò kont tout moun ki peye taks, kont tout lòt peyi ak òganism ki debloke lajan pou eleksyon posib. Lè yon moun vòlò eleksyon an Ayiti, li vòlò tout Ayisyen. Kandida sa a se... Pèp Ayisyen an.

Si se Ayiti ke n ap defann vre, si nou kont koudeta militè, fòk nou kont koudeta elektoral tou. Lè se militaro-makout k ap souse san pèp lan, nou rele anmwe! ...Men lè se chimè, nou nye sa kategorikman.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Mer 17 Mar 2010 - 8:29

Eskize m m Thunder, men repons ou an pa gen okenn sans. Yon eleksyon se yon konpetisyon. Moun ki gen genyen an se limenm ki gen plis vot. Si ou deklare yon kandida volo yon eleksyon sa vle di li fè koken pou li genyen paske li pa gen ase moun pou li ta genyen san koken.

Ou tonbe preche paske ou pa gen agiman valab!

Koze rele Bill Clinton "bon papa" se radot pou konfonn moun ki pa fouye koze yo komsadwa. Gade tèks Noam Chomsky a anko, si reyalite aktyèl la pa sifi, pou montre ou Bill Clinton ak tout madanm li se koze biznis ak karyè politik yo y ap regle depi dikdantan. Si an 1994 Bill te oblije retounen ze a nan vant poul la, sa pa vle di se favè li t ap fè ni Aristide, ni Ayiti, ni demokrasi. Blan an se sinik li ye nan jan li jere politik. Li konn ki jan pou li jere imaj li pou se tyoul k ap travay pou li yo ki toujou mal parèt. Kidonk, move wol la se sou do Cedras ak Michel Francois li te tonbe. Men, alaverite, koudeta 1991 lan se blan an ki fè li tou. E kit se repibliken, kit se demokrat, yo te ladanl !

Se vre, nivo rayisman epi santiman rasis ki anime yon salopri tankou Jesse Helms se kichoy ki difisil pou yon demokrat depase. Mèzalo, tout negosiyasyon Governors Island yo demontre nou ki jan lojik blan Meriken alegad Ayiti pa janm chanje fondamantalman, kit se repibliken, kit se demokrat ki nan kay blan an. Patnè biznis yo - ke yo santi yo alèz pou yo magouye ak yo sou do pèp la, se lelit ti lolit RASIS, RETWOGRAD nou an - ki gen ni nèg nwa, ni nèg milat ki pa konnen se nèg yo ye. Wi, yo RASIS kont pwop tèt yo paske yo drese yo ekspre pou sa nan lekol ak legliz!

Orezime: Nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan volè eleksyon 2000 yo?

Repons san twou nan manch: Ou bwè pwa!

Ou bwè pwa paske se MANTI! Aristide pat volè pyès eleksyon nan ane 2000.
Volè eleksyon nan ane sa a te rele George W. Bush!

Moun ki pa restavèk blan pa janm pè di verite sa a!

Repo!

Jaf
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Mer 17 Mar 2010 - 15:20

Jaf-Frik,

Pa fè wont sèvi kòlè. Wou byen jwenn repons lan nan sa m ekri, men wou vle bouche zye w pou pa fè fas ak verite an.

Jaf ekri:

Citation :
Eskize m m Thunder, men repons ou an pa gen okenn sans. Yon eleksyon se yon konpetisyon. Moun ki gen genyen an se limenm ki gen plis vot. Si ou deklare yon kandida volo yon eleksyon sa vle di li fè koken pou li genyen paske li pa gen ase moun pou li ta genyen san koken.

Jaf! ki valè koken ke w te vle toujou la a?

Instead, in each department, the Haitian electoral council had counted only votes for the top four contenders. (In the one department that had three open seats, the top six contenders' votes were counted.) The votes accruing to all other candidates were simply ignored. This bizarre method of counting grossly inflated the percentages accorded the two leading contenders in each department -- boosting many over the 50 percent-plus-one threshold necessary to avoid a runoff.

For example, there should have been a runoff in the North East Department where the leading candidates for the two seats garnered 49.7 and 46.4 percent of the vote respectively. But by counting only the votes cast for the top four candidates -- and thereby ignoring eight other candidates' votes -- the electoral council bumped up the leading candidates' percentages more than 20 points

Sa a se sa ke blan an te wè, men yo pat nan zòn tankou Site Solèy kote ke anpil chimè ki te genyen nan tèt yo "Almando Boston", "Millien 19", "Toutou Bonapat" t ap mache rantre nan tout biwo vòt pou mete deyò tout mandatè lòt pati politik ak kout baton. Blan yo pat la lè pifò bwat bilten te al chanje nan komisarya polis. Genyen de kote yo pat menm pèdi tan yo kite moun yo vote, yo di ke poko genyen bilten, yo pran non moun nan epi yo di l tounen pita, epoutan 5 minit apre "moun" sa a te "vote" san ke l pa la.

Citation :
Nan men ki kandida Aristide te swadizan volè eleksyon 2000 yo?

M ap repete w li ankò, wou sòti pou devye m nan defann dwa pèp Ayisyen an. Wou sòti pou w mete m nan kondisyon kote ke se lòt politisyen ke m vinn defann, men erèzman ke mwen vijilan anpil, mwen p ap kite sa pase.

Seleksyon Novanm 2000 yo te fè ak yon sèl kandida apre ke tout lòt sektè te rele pou boykote l. Lè yon eleksyon pran touni sa a, kandida a ki ale nan eleksyon an genyen yon sèl kandida anfas li: PèP LA.

Jan ke nou pral konnen kiyès nan kandida yo ki genyen eleksyon yo, se POUSANTAJ pèp ki te fè deplasman an pou al vote. Nan ka seleksyon Novanm 2000 yo, pousantaj lan te 5%, dapre depatman deta Ameriken, ak lòt obsèvatè kite sou teren an.

Jaf, sa mwen pa ka konprann se ke menm si ke se ta vre ke 92% Ayisyen ta vote pou Aristide, kòman ke 50 gason mal ame fè arive pran mwatye nan yon peyi nan mwens ke 2 semèn? Epoutan se nan menm peyi sa a ke 7 mil militè, 15 mil manb Fraph san konte "atache" te fè 3 lane ap eseye kenbe yon pèp san zam nan nich li pou menm endividi sa a ki te rekòlte 67% nan yon eleksyon anvan. Kòman ke w ka esplike m sa a? An rezime, ki kote ke 92% pèp sa a te ye 29 Fevriye 2004?

Monchè, mwen twouve ke w derespekte pèp Ayisyen an anpil, mwen twouve ke w panse ke pèp sa a se yon pèp ki lach, yon pèp ki p ap goumen pou sa ke l kwè. Pou 92% Ayisyen ta Lavalas, epi pou yon "ti minorite zwit" ta fè Aristide kouri san okèn rezistans ki diy de non? (Byen antandi, mwen p ap pale de masak pèp san zam, kidnaping ak asasina) Sa vreeeee fòk genyen yon moun ki pou eskplike koze sila a.
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MessageSujet: Re: Chomsky: Haiti earthquake a "class based catastrophe&qu   Lun 22 Mar 2010 - 14:55

Sanble ke bwat pawòl Jafrik fini? Oubyen eske se konprann ke li finalman konprann ke rebelyon 2004 lan pa reflete "popilarite" Aristide a plis ke 92% ke yo toujou ap reklame an?

Antouka, kèlkeswa rezon ki lakòz ke chòt li kwoke an, genyen de kesyon sou eleksyon 2000 yo ke li pa dwe poze ankò, peryòd!
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