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 An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen

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MessageSujet: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 1:16

Si nou fè rechech, na p wè Lang Brezilyen an swiv menm chemen kote Kreyòl ayisyen pase pou toulede lang sayo rive kote yo ye jodya.

Toudabò, nou fè gwo diskisyon sou kreyòl men moun pa janm panse pou konpare 2 lang sa yo.

Gen moun ki konpran ke lang brezilyen yo pale a se mem lang ki pale Potigal.
Se pa vre non.
Distans ant 2 lang sa yo apeprè menm bagay ak distans ant Kreyòl e Franse.

Istorikman, yo devlope memjan anba kolonizasyon potigè epi yo toulede sibi menm enfliyans lingistik lòt kilti ki te lan peyi sayo.
Pi gwo pwen an komen se enfliyans afriken nan toulede lang yo sibi.
Se sa pa ekzanp ki bay ni Ayiti ni Brezil mo "bounda" a.



Brazilian Portuguese

Brazilian Portuguese (Portuguese: português brasileiro or português do Brasil; pt-BR) is a group of Portuguese dialects written and spoken by most of the almost 200 million inhabitants (2009) of Brazil and by a few million Brazilian emigrants, mainly in the United States, United Kingdom, Portugal, Canada, Japan and Paraguay.

Roughly speaking, the differences between European Portuguese and standard Brazilian Portuguese are comparable to the ones found between British and American English. As many as 15% of the words are different and limited mainly to flora, fauna, foods, etc. As with many languages, the differences between standard Brazilian Portuguese and its informal vernacular are marked, though lexicon and most of the grammar rules remain the same. Nonetheless, there are still scientific debates about the status of that variant due to those differences, especially whether or not it would be a case of diglossia.

Nevertheless, the comparatively recent development of Brazilian Portuguese (and its use by people of various linguistic backgrounds), the cultural prestige and strong government support accorded to the written standard has maintained the unity of the language over the whole of Brazil and ensured that all regional varieties remain fully intelligible. Starting in the 1960s, the nationwide dominance of TV networks based in the southeast (Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo) has made the dialects of that region into an unofficial spoken standard for the means of communication, as well
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 10:25

Sasaye,

Silteple eske ou ka poste res atik la oubyen mete yon lyen. Mwen ak Joel ta interese nan atik sa. Mesi anpil.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 10:36

SASAYE;

Mwen sonje ,mwen te ekri yon pòs sou NOUVELLISTE e mwen te ize mo ""bounda"" a e yo te ""delete"" mo an.
BREZILYEN yomenm si se lan kontèks dèryè moun ,se mo ""bonda"" yo ize ,san pwoblèm;mo sa a pa gen yon sans pejoratif ke nou bali lan KREYÒL ayisyen an.
Mwen te wè ,yon lòt kote gen yon moun ki te souliye yon douzèn mo konsa ke w jwenn lan kreyòl ayisyen ak PÒTIGÈ brezilyen an;ki tankou w di pa tankou PÒTIGÈ PÒTIGAL lan.
Mo tankou "'kwi"" ak mo ki gen konotasyon seksyèl se menm yo ye e an kreyòl nou an e an pòtigè brezilyen an.
BREZILYEN yo pa konsène jan PÒTIGÈ yo pale ,pou yo sa pa regade yo.Yo pa p tann ke ekivalan LAROUS lan PÒTIGAL apwouve yon mo ,pou yomenm yo ize l.

Pou koutim yo tou ,gen yon seri de bagay ki ap disparèt ann AFRIK;Yo kenbe yo tenn fas.

Mwen sonje lè m te timoun ,gen yon nèg ki te konn vwayaje lan pwovens e misye te konn rakonte nou ,sa l te konn wè.
Mwen pa konn si mesyedam ki leve lan pwovens yo ,te konn tande ""tire baton ak tire manchèt""
Se yon sòt de ""art martial"" ki sòti ann AFRIK.
Brezilyen yo ,kenbe l tèl kèl.Yo gen yon ""a masyal"" ke yo rele ""capoiera"" ki sanble sòti lan zòn ANGOLA.
Se yon peyi ,nou gen avantaj pou nou fè echanj kiltirèl ak yo ,pou remanbre kilti nou ke Euro-zonbifikasyon an,pou m anplwaye mo JAF lan ,ap kontribye a demanbre nou.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 12:14

2e photo:

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Dernière édition par kami le Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 7:38, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 12:36

Kami,

Mwen byen kontan wè ke w enterese lan sije saa.
Laplipa pòs yo pase san reyaksyon si se pa politilk ak patizanri.
E poutan, sijè sosyal e kiltirèl fè pati de refondasyon patri a.

Patrimwan Ayiti fèt pou pwoteje e youn lan mwayen yo se pou divilge enfomasyon sou istwa ak kilti nou.
Men lòt enfomasyon sou lang Brezilyen an ki kapab montre similarite l avek kreyol ayisyen.
Se de lang diferan, men evolisyon yo montre ke yo se de lang ki gen rapo
sosyal ak istorik.

Nou kapab pran ekzanp kijan gouvènman Brezilyen soutni lang yo e fòse
moun adopte l kòm lang nasyonal malgre anpil enfliyans ewopeyen akòz de
yon gwo popilasyon ki gen orijin lan plizye kote lan planèt lan.


Influences from other languages

The evolution of Brazilian Portuguese has certainly been influenced by the languages it supplanted:
first the Amerindian tongues of the natives, then the various African languages brought by the slaves,
and finally the ones of European and Asian immigrants.

The influence is clearly detected in the Brazilian lexicon, which today has hundreds of words of Tupi-Guarani and Yoruba origin, among others. However, the vocabulary is still overwhelmingly Portuguese, since the contributions of other languages were restricted to a few subjects or areas of knowledge.

From South America, words deriving from the Tupi-Guarani language family are particularly prevalent in place names (Itaquaquecetuba, Pindamonhangaba, Caruaru, Ipanema, Mogi).

The native languages also contributed for the names of most of the plants and animals found in Brazil, such as arara ("macaw"), jacaré ("South American alligator"), tucano ("toucan"), mandioca ("manioc"), abacaxi ("pineapple"), and many more. However, it should be noted that many Tupi-Guarani toponyms didn't derive directly from Amerindian expressions, but were in fact coined by European settlers and Jesuit missionaries, who used the Língua Geral extensively in the first centuries of colonization.

Many of the Amerindian words entered the Brazilian Portuguese lexicon as early as in the 16th century, and some of them were eventually borrowed by European Portuguese and later even into other European languages.

The African languages provided hundreds of words too, especially in the following subjects: food (e.g. quitute, quindim, acarajé, moqueca), religious concepts (mandinga, macumba, orixá, axé), African-Brazilian music (samba, lundu, maxixe, berimbau),
body-related parts and diseases (banguela, bunda, capenga, caxumba), places (cacimba, quilombo, senzala, mocambo),

objects (miçanga, abadá, tanga) and household concepts, such as cafuné ("caress on the head"), curinga ("joker card"),
caçula ("youngest child"), and moleque ("brat, spoiled child").

Though the African slaves had various ethnic origins, the Bantu and Guinean-Sudanese groups contributed by far to most of the borrowings, above all the Kimbundu (from Angola), Kikongo (from Angola, the Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo[2]), Yoruba/Nagô (from Nigeria), and Jeje/Ewe language (from Benin).

There are also many borrowings from other European languages such as English (especially words connected to technology, modern science and finance, like layout, briefing, designer, slideshow, mouse (computing), forward, commodities, commercial terms like kingsize, fast food, delivery service, self service, drive-thru, telemarketing, franchise, merchandise, but also cultural aspects such as okay, junk food, hot dog, pet, nerd, geek, noob, punk, hooligan, cool, vibe, hype, overdose, junkie, cowboy, mullet, sex appeal, drag queen, bro, gospel, praise, bullying, stalking), French (food, furniture, luxurious fabrics and abstract concepts).

Scholars affirm that even now, French remains as the largest foreign influence in Portuguese due the fact that French borrowings were adopted by a strong cultural affinity.

Brazilian Portuguese tends to adopt French suffixes as in aterrissagem, differently from European Portuguese.
Brazilian Pt. also tends to adopt culture-bound concepts from French, but when it comes to technology, the major influence is the English, while European Pt. tends to adopt technological terms from French.

That is the difference between estação and gare. An evident example of the dichotomy between English and French influences is the use of the expressions know-how, used in a technical context, and savoir-faire, in literal Portuguese saber-fazer, proficiência-da-feitura, saber-como), German and Italian (mostly food, music, arts and architecture), and, to a lesser extent, Asian languages such as Japanese.

The latter borrowings are also mostly related to food and drinks or culture-bound concepts, such as quimono, from Japanese kimono. Besides strudel, pretzel, bratwurst, sauerkraut (chucrute), Oktoberfest, biergarten, there are also abstract terms from German like encrenca or blitz. A significant number of beer brands in Brazil are named after German culture-bound concepts due the fact that the brewing process was brought by German immigrants.

Besides, there were many Italian loan words and expressions which aren't related to food or music:
(italianisms) like tchau, imbróglio, bisonho, panetone, è vero, cicerone, male male, terra roxa, capisce, mezzo, va bene, ecco, ecco fatto, ecco qui, caspita, cavolo, incavolarsi, engrouvinhado, andiamo via.
Due to its large Italian diaspora, parts of the Southern and Southeast states have an Italian influence over the prosody,
the vocal patterns of the language, with an Italian sounding stress.[3]

The influence of these languages in the phonology and grammar of Brazilian Portuguese have been very minor.[
Some authors claim the loss of initial es in the verb estar - now widespread in Brazil, mainly due the speed of modern life - is an influence from African slaves' speech,[4] and it is also claimed that some common factors of BP - such as the virtual disappearance of certain verb inflections and the marked preference for compound tenses - recall the grammatical simplification typical of pidgins.

However, the same or similar processes can be verified in the European variant, and such theories haven't still been proved.[5] Regardless of these borrowings and changes, it must be kept in mind that Brazilian Portuguese is not a Portuguese creole, since it can be traced as a direct evolution from 16th century European Portuguese.[5]

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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 13:50

Sasaye,

Ces genres de sujets m'interessent davantage. Sa montre ke nou monte nivo dyalog yo sou fowom nan, pour ke moun kap li nou yo, ya we ke nap pale des choses beaucoup plus serieuses, des choses de grandes substances; nap trete de suje deho nivo.

Mwen tap gade nan diksyone portuge pou mo bounda min sa yo di: Diz-se de uma língua falada por certas populações de Angola.

Gin anpil mo kreyol ki soti nan afrik de l'ouest tankou bounda (bunda) ki soti nan Kimbundu nan Angola, nan lang Bantu ak Duala nan Cameron. Pa examp gin de ekspresyon ke esklav yo te tradui tou de Bantu/Duala an angle ak kreyol:

Cameron: " money na hand back na ground" (na=in)
Kreyol Ayisyen: "lagent nan main bounda nan ter"!

Raprochman konsenan lang Brezilyen/Kreyol lan se plis nan Salvador Bahia ke wap jwen li paske se la konsentrasyon neg lan ye. Tankou danse avek baton ke Joel tap pale-a, (Capoeira) ou jwen li en Ayiti, avek zil ki nan karaib yo, minm bo isit nan sud USA, yo fel sou yon poto ki sou dlo.

Mwen ta renmen lot moun pataje sa yo konen tou de sujet interesan sa-a. (san goumin)

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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 16:10

Fòk mwen fè nou remake tou ke genyen bagay ke nou poste sou fowòm ki tou senpleman infòmativ. Yo konn pafwa plis sanble ak yon nouvèl ke yon sijè pou moun diskite. Pa genyen anyen mal nan sa, paske nou pa diskite senpleman, men nou enfòme tèt nou tou. Brèf!

Mwen pa dakò ak sa ke Sasaye di an asavwa ke Pòtigal ak Brezil pale 2 lang diferan. Kijan pou yo fè diferan si yo genyen menm règ gramè ak senpleman mwens ke 15% mo ki diferan? Mwen, si mwen t ap pale kreyòl moun Site ak nou, genyen nan nou ki te ka pa konprann yon pousantaj nan mo yo, eske sa vle di ke se yon lòt kreyòl? Donk, pou mwen, Brezilyen pale Pòtigè. Youn konprann lòt san entèprèt. Alò nou pa ka konpare yo ak Ayisyen ak Franse ki pa genyen menm règ gramè e ki definitivman pa ekri menm jan.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 21:19

Thunder,
Mwen gen akwentans ki soti e Brezil e Pòtigal.
Se eksperyans ke mwen fè, youn pa konprann lòt.

Dokimantasyon an menm di ke Lang brezilyen an gen enflyans amerendien, afriken, italien e menm japonè.
Alòske Pòtigè pa gen tout kontribisyon sayo.

Natirèlman, yon Pòtigè kapab aprann Brezilyen rapidman akoz de sous komen, men si yon moun lan chak peyi sayo
rankontre lan yon lòt peyi, yo gen pwoblèm.

Dayè gen lot diferans lan lang Potige ke yo pale lan Angola ak Mozanbik ki diferan de Kap Vèt e sa Makao lan pi red toujou.
Mwen te Makao an Mas 2010, tout siy lan lari ekri an Pòtigè. Men lè yo pale, brezilyen pakab konprann yo.

Pou remak gramè ak ekriti an.
An Chinn, moun ki pale Kantonè ak sa k pale Mandaren youn pa konprann anyen de sa
lot lan ap di. Men yo tout kapab li menm jounal.

Menmjan, Doktè mwen se moun Il Moris.
Kreyòl se youn lan lang ofisyel yo, akote franse ak angle.
Kreyòl pi enpotan lan zil saa ke lòt lang yo paske li se lang ke tout Morisyen pale (angle pa pale franse, franse pa pale angle).

Natirèlman, Doktè a ak madam li toujou genyen konvèsasyon an kreyòl avèk mwen malgre ke yo pale franse.
O komansman, mwen te gen pwoblèm konprann yo. Men apre kèk tan mwen vinn abitye ak kijan yo pale.
Se kreyòl, men gen anpil diferans paske lang nan devlope lan de rejyon ki lwen anpil youn de lot.

Se pa mwen ki di.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mar 28 Sep 2010 - 23:34

Sasaye,

Mwen ta renmen pou li tèks sa a epi pou w tire konklizyon pa w. Mwen pa di ke gen dwa ke Brezilyen ki bezwen entèprèt, paske mwen si ke genyen dyalèk o Brezil. Men grand majorite popilasyon konprann lè yon Pòtigè ap pale, aksan yo ka diferan menm jan ke aksan Ameriken an diferan de aksan Angle an.

Portugal may defer to Brazil on standardizing language

Ex-colonial master takes blow to pride

By Barry Hatton
ASSOCIATED PRESS

April 27, 2008

LISBON, Portugal – Portugal's former empire is striking back – through language.

As Brazil rises on the international stage and its one-time colonial master wanes, a proposed standardization of the Portuguese language would require hundreds of words to be spelled the Brazilian way.

The Portuguese government approves, but some here are mortified.

“There is no need for us to take a back seat to Brazil,” protested Vasco Graca Moura, a respected poet who is among those leading the charge against the changes.

For a once-mighty power whose language is an official one for 230 million people worldwide, it's a blow to pride comparable to making the British adopt American spelling – “honor,” for instance, instead of “honour.”

But advocates say the benefits include easier Internet searches in Portuguese and uniform legalese for international contracts.

Portuguese officials hope it can advance an old ambition of getting Portuguese adopted as an official language at the United Nations, which currently has six.

The government has asked Parliament to ratify an agreement with the world's seven other Portuguese-speaking countries – Brazil, Angola, Mozambique, East Timor, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, and Sao Tome and Principe.

The changes would match spelling more closely to the way words are pronounced by removing silent consonants, as Brazilians do. Thus “optimo” (great) would become “otimo,” and “accao” (action) would become “acao.”

The alphabet would expand to 26 letters by adding k, w and y, to accommodate words such as “kilometro” and “kwanza,” the Angolan currency. New rules on hyphens and accents would change “auto-estrada” (highway) to “autoestrada.”

Only about 2,000 words out of the 110,000-word Portuguese vocabulary are affected and modifications are to be adopted by all seven countries, but three-quarters of the changes fall on Portugal...

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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 1:50

Thunder,
Pa gen kontradiksyon ant tèks saa e sa k te ekri anvan.
Li souliye diferans ki ekziste ant de version lang Potige an.

Rezon mwen poste tèks lan se pa pou antre lan etimoloji ak gramè Pòtigè
paske mwen pa pale lang saa kouramman, malgre ke m konprann enpe lan konteks li
paske mwen enterese lan lengwystik.
Vre rezon an se pou nou wè ke genyen yon paralèl lan devlopman Bresilyen ak Kreyòl Ayisyen.

Paralèl saa soti lan menm sitiyasion istorik an pasan pa esklavaj ke Brezil e Ayiti pataje.

Men yon lòt enfomasyon sou diferans yo

Differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese

Brazilian and European Portuguese are very far apart—from spelling to the use of
verb tenses and terminology.
In many situations, the use of European Portuguese is unacceptable to Brazilians,
and vice-versa.

The choice of words can be completely different and sometimes "laughable."
This is specially true when it comes to technical texts, where even the choices of "imported" words are different.

A Brazilian person can read a book or hear an interview on the radio,
but that is the extent of the use of European Portuguese in Brazil.
In Portugal, Brazilian Portuguese would carry a lot of "mistakes" and
awkward word choices and may often be considered an uncultured variation
of the European form.

If we are talking about a couple of lines in a packaging (contents, or regulatory info),
you could probably use one translation—
but you should remember that regulations vary from country to country.

If your product is targeted to a specific market niche or widespread use,
you should have two translations. Another fact to consider is national pride,
that is, the response of a consumer to a product that is obviously not directed to him/her.

The good news is that in most subject matters you can have a text translated
for one target country and then edited (localized/adapted) for another.

The bad news is that this is not a very cost efficient solution;
Brazilian and Portuguese translators would rather translate "from scratch"
than edit a text translated for another market, since the changes are usually
very extensive, and the time required for the task might be longer than the time required to do a normal editing.

The relevance of the difference between the two forms of Portuguese doesn't apply
to all situations.

José Saramago, for instance, is considered a great writer in any of the Portuguese speaking countries
(there are eight: Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal,
S. Tomé and Príncipe, and East Timor).

The more formal the language, the easier to understand it in another Portuguese speaking country;
but make no mistake, there is NO such thing as standard Portuguese.

The Orthographic Agreement

Spelling (Orthography) in Brazil and in Portugal is ruled by law, and the Brazilian and Portuguese spellings are different.
Portuguese speaking countries signed an orthographic agreement that was
supposed to be in place (kicks in January 1st., 2009 in Brazil).
More than unifying spellings, the agreement is oriented to accept one another's spelling as correct. The agreement will not impact translations in the sense that a translation directed to Brazil will still not be recommended to be used in Portugal,
and vice-versa.

The agreement (in Portuguese) can be found here. Lyris' comment about it summarize very well the question.

Orthographic Agreement will kick in January 1st, 2009 in Brazil.
There will be a transition period when both, the new and the old orthography
will be accepted. This period begins January 1st. 2009 and ends December 31st, 2012.



Dernière édition par Sasaye le Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 7:31, édité 4 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 4:07

GOOD JOB;SASAYE

Ou pa bezwen lengwis pwofesyonèl ;ou bezwen'"entelektyèl"" kiryozite.
Gen yon lit pwenn fè pa aktyèlman sou lang CHINWA a.Gen 2 lang chinwa ;gen youn yo rele ""MANDAREN CHINWA"",gen yon lòt yo rele ""CANTONESE CHINWA"" ;yo pa menm.

Chinwa se lang ""modèn"" ki ka pi ansyen.Li pi ansyen ke menm LATEN ou byen GRÈK ki lang yo pa ize ankò.
Gouvènman PEKEN an vle enpoze MANDAREN CHINWA a ,sa ki pale KANTONIZ yo di yo ale yo la voum.
Se menm jan tou ,pa gen yon sèl lang ARAB tou, gen plizyè.Pa gen garanti ke yon ALJERYEN gen dwa konprann Arab ARABI SAWOUDIT,ou byen IRAK elt...
An RISI jis kounye an ,y ap goumen sou OTOGRAF lang RIS.
Se noumenm sèlman nou vle rete esklav lang yon peyi ,nou kase kòd ak li sa gen plis ke 200 zan.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 7:56

Sasaye,

Pa lwen kote ke m ap viv la, pou kounyea, genyen yon kominote Brezilyen ak Pòtigè ki trè enpòpan, mwen pral sou teren an pou m ka mennen yon ti ankèt. Si w genyen rezon, mwen p ap pè avwe sa kòm dabitib. Men sèl bagay li difisil pou m konprann kòman fè 2 lang ki pa menm, fè ap siyen agreement sou òtograf mo? Eske w panse ke Kreyòl ak Fransè ka jwenn yon agreement konsa tou?

Mwen panse ke Pòtigè ke yo pale Pòtigal lan ak sa ke yo pale o Brezil lan plis sanble ak Angle ke yo pale an Angletè ak sa ke yo pale nan Etazini an nan kontèks diferans ki ekziste antre yo.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 8:11

Thunder,

Agreman-an se sou otograf ant mo potige brezilyen an ak potige eropeyen an pataje ki gen anpil aksan nan voyel ak consonn yo e ke yo panse ke yo bezwen pi sinp pou uzaj intenet ak trade.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 8:13

Jiska prezan mwen dakò, men kisa ki anpeche ke Kreyòl ak Franse jwenn yon agreement konsa?
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 8:15

Mwen ta renmen ke nou bann vrè rezon an, epi m ap dakò ak nou san grate tèt.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 8:24

Thunder a écrit:
Jiska prezan mwen dakò, men kisa ki anpeche ke Kreyòl ak Franse jwenn yon agreement konsa?

Kom yo di nan teks la, potige brezilyen se rezilta yo influyans de plizye lot lang nan evolusyon lang potige an. Tandike kreyol dapre mwen pa osi evolye tankou potige brezilyen an (puisque nou te konsederel kom yon patwa), petet ke se konye-a sa pral fet akoz de influyans ak lang angle e petet espayol, paske diaspora-a ase laj an dominikani ak etazuni.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 9:30

NON KAMI;

Pa vin tonbe lan pyèj ke KREYÒL pa osi evolye ke nenpòt lòt lang.Kisa w bezwen di ,ke w paka eksprime l an KREYÒL.Zafè patwa a pa repete sa ankò.
Pa p gen akò ant FRANSE ak KREYÒL;se 2 lang diferan.Se tankou ou ta ka di ap gen akò ant PÒTIGÈ ak PANYÒL.
Pandan lontan PANYÒL te meprize PÒTIGÈ.Yo te di moun ki pale PÒTIGÈ yo se PANYÒL MAWON yo pale.
FRANSE yomenm ,yo te deja rekonèt ke lan koloni yo se yon lang ki pa franse moun yo te pale.Se poutèt sa pandan peryòd revolisyonè lè yo t ap voye yon dokiman lan SENDOMENG ,yo tradwi l an KREYÒL byen ke yo pa t bòs lan lang lan.

Sa a se DEKLARASYON LIBÈTE JENERAL ESKLAV -1793 ke SHONTONAX te proklame:

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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 13:06


Thundè,

Pwen ki enpotan lan sijè saa se pa si mwen oubyen oumenm gen rezon.
Si w pa vle kwè sa w li an, se prerogativ ou.

Ou mèt fè ankèt. Mwen deja fè eksperyans saa kòm mwen di w lan komansman
dialog lan.

Mwen ta p soti avèk yon Potigèz ki orijinè Lisbòn.
Mwen ta p travay lan yon restoran dansan Brezilyen.
Mwen te konn mennen dam nan lan restoran an.
Li te gen anpil difiikilte konprann e konvèse avèk brezilyen yo.

Wa p pale de diferans ant Angle e Ameriken?
Ale Angletè pou w wè si w ap alèz lan tout rejyion avèk angle ameriken ke w aprann
Ozeta yo.
Yon meriken ki soti lan Sid mèt pran yon entèprèt.

Menmjan, lage yon ayisyen mwayen lan midi Lafrans.
Mwen garanti w la p pèdi lolòj li.
Se apre kèk tan la p kapab genyen yon konvèsasyon kouran avèk franse yo.
A Pari menm, men pa p pale de ti kominikasyon tankou achte lan magazen oubyen avek machann e anplwaye sèvis.

Ma p pale de diskisyon nòmal, bay blag, fè plezantri. rakonte esperyans Ayiti oubyen vwayaj lan, koutize yon fanm, patisipe lan deba, ...

.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 13:56

Joel,

Mwen ta priye-w pou pran san-w ler wap li yon post. Tanpri retounen aler li sam te ekri. Mwen te panse ke lang kreyol lan gen yon gramer se pou fe direrans ant prezan et impafet, ou byen se ouminm ki pa kon-n konjige an kreyol. Depi yon moun by yon opinyon ke-w pa dakor sou kreyol lan, plim sou do-w kanpe. Tet fret mon cher. sou paka retounen sou post la minli:

Citation :
Tandike kreyol dapre mwen pa osi evolye tankou potige brezilyen an (puisque nou te konsederel kom yon patwa)

E map dil ankor avek konviksyon ke lang potuge brezilyen an pi evoluye pase kreyol ayisyen an.

Aussi kreyol lan difisil pafwa pou eksplike sa ou apran-n nan yon lot lang.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Mer 29 Sep 2010 - 17:32

kami a écrit:
Joel,

Mwen ta priye-w pou pran san-w ler wap li yon post. Tanpri retounen aler li sam te ekri. Mwen te panse ke lang kreyol lan gen yon gramer se pou fe direrans ant prezan et impafet, ou byen se ouminm ki pa kon-n konjige an kreyol. Depi yon moun by yon opinyon ke-w pa dakor sou kreyol lan, plim sou do-w kanpe. Tet fret mon cher. sou paka retounen sou post la minli:.

KAMI;
Se pou nou sispann joure lè nou ap fè yon diskisyon.
Lang KREYÒL lan gen gramè.Li gen tout tan ,prezan,enpafèt,sibjonktif,pase elt...
Li fè sa lan jan pa l;li se yon lang otonòm ,li pa pran lòt lang pou egzanp;lè li nesesè li imite ,lè li pa nesesè tou ,li aji an granmoun.
Se bagay ou konnen ,li pi fasil pou konjige vèb ann ANGLE ke an FRANSE.Lè w tonbe konjige vèb an FRANSE ,se lan yon labirent ou tonbe.
Map repete anba bouch de nèg tankou DE GRAFF ak DEJEAN ,nanpwen anyen ou vle di an KREYÒL ke w pa p kapab di l,depi w gen volonte pou sa.
Gen anpil lang ki mwen avanse ke lang KREYÒL lan.
Pran yon lang tankou EBRE lang IZRAYÈL lan.Yo te fè dè syèk e dè syèk yo pa t pale l;ou sinon yo te fè sa lan okazyon ra.
An 1948,yo te resisite l e l ap fonksyone tankou lang nasyonal peyi IZRAYÈL.
Kreyòl menm,nou gen plis ke 3 syèk n ap pale l san rete.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Jeu 30 Sep 2010 - 2:11

Sasaye a écrit:

Thundè,

Pwen ki enpotan lan sijè saa se pa si mwen oubyen oumenm gen rezon.
Si w pa vle kwè sa w li an, se prerogativ ou.

Ou mèt fè ankèt. Mwen deja fè eksperyans saa kòm mwen di w lan komansman
dialog lan.

Mwen ta p soti avèk yon Potigèz ki orijinè Lisbòn.
Mwen ta p travay lan yon restoran dansan Brezilyen.
Mwen te konn mennen dam nan lan restoran an.
Li te gen anpil difiikilte konprann e konvèse avèk brezilyen yo.

Wa p pale de diferans ant Angle e Ameriken?
Ale Angletè pou w wè si w ap alèz lan tout rejyion avèk angle ameriken ke w aprann
Ozeta yo.
Yon meriken ki soti lan Sid mèt pran yon entèprèt.

Menmjan, lage yon ayisyen mwayen lan midi Lafrans.
Mwen garanti w la p pèdi lolòj li.
Se apre kèk tan la p kapab genyen yon konvèsasyon kouran avèk franse yo.
A Pari menm, men pa p pale de ti kominikasyon tankou achte lan magazen oubyen avek machann e anplwaye sèvis.

Ma p pale de diskisyon nòmal, bay blag, fè plezantri. rakonte esperyans Ayiti oubyen vwayaj lan, koutize yon fanm, patisipe lan deba, ...

.

Epoutan, kreyòl ak fransè p ap janm al chache agreement sou òtograf mo. Mwen te di w ke genyen moun ki pale dyalèk nan sèten rejyon k ap genyen difikilte konprann yon Pòtigè, men se plis rejyon riral yo, menm jan ke w mansyone pou moun k ap viv nan sid Etazini yo.

Vrè sa ke mwen vle di an se ke, konparativman ak kreyòl nou an, Pòtigè Brezilyen yo rete soude ak pa Ewòp lan, malgre ge yo genyen ti diferans. Men, kreyòl pa nou an devye l de lang tankou franse plis. Nou pa fouti jwenn yon konpwomi pou òtograf mo menm jan ak Brezil ak Pòtigal ap fè la a, paske tou senpleman kreyòl la twò lwen franse an.

Genyen diferans tou ant Matinik e Ayiti, men sa pa vle di ke se 2 lang diferan. Lè yon Matinikè ap pale, mwen ka mande l swa pou l repete oubyen fòmile sa li di an yon lòt fason, men sa pa vle di ke lòlòj mwen ap vire.

Si nou gade fak yo, nou ka wè ke ekspè yo aksepte tou 2 tankou yon sèl lang menm lè ke yo genyen diferans yo. Paske lè yo di ke Pòtigè se 7tyèm lang ki pi pale sou planèt lan, yo enkli ni Brezil ni Pòtigal. Donk, mwen panse ke si yo te diferan konsa vre, yo pa t ap janm mete yo nan menm lo. Epoutan, Franse ak Kreyòl yo menm pa nan menm lo yo.

Citation :
Mais de 240 milhões de falantes da língua portuguesa no mundo justificam a aposta do governo na promoção e difusão da língua portuguesa no estrangeiro, através de uma nova estratégia aprovada esta quarta-feira em Conselho de Ministros, escreve a Lusa.

Distribuída pelos cinco continentes, a língua portuguesa é a terceira mais falada nos continentes africano e europeu.

Além da população residente em cada um dos oito países que têm a língua portuguesa como idioma oficial - Angola (12,5 milhões de habitantes), Brasil (191,9 milhões), Cabo Verde (427 mil), Guiné-Bissau (1,5 milhões), Moçambique (21,2 milhões), Portugal (10,6 milhões), São Tomé e Príncipe (206 mil) e Timor-Leste (1,1 milhões) - mais de 5 milhões de pessoas constituem as comunidades portuguesas espalhadas pelo mundo.

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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Jeu 30 Sep 2010 - 8:13

Thunder,

Kisa wap cheche demanti nan teks sa-a pou rive ak konklizyon-w nan:

Citation :
Si nou fè rechech, na p wè Lang Brezilyen an swiv menm chemen kote Kreyòl ayisyen pase pou toulede lang sayo rive kote yo ye jodya.

Toudabò, nou fè gwo diskisyon sou kreyòl men moun pa janm panse pou konpare 2 lang sa yo.

Gen moun ki konpran ke lang brezilyen yo pale a se mem lang ki pale Potigal.
Se pa vre non.
Distans ant 2 lang sa yo apeprè menm bagay ak distans ant Kreyòl e Franse.

Istorikman, yo devlope memjan anba kolonizasyon potigè epi yo toulede sibi menm enfliyans lingistik lòt kilti ki te lan peyi sayo.
Pi gwo pwen an komen se enfliyans afriken nan toulede lang yo sibi.
Se sa pa ekzanp ki bay ni Ayiti ni Brezil mo "bounda" a.

Joel,

BTW mwen pap joure. Si mesaj mwen yo inpe "strong" se paske mwen se sel fiy nanmitan gason kap fe diskisyon an (I don't mind), e gen de gason ki gen tandans mache sou fiy le yap pale pou yo ka femen bouch yo, nou we sa sou fowom nan.
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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Ven 1 Oct 2010 - 0:26

kami a écrit:
Thunder,

Kisa wap cheche demanti nan teks sa-a pou rive ak konklizyon-w nan:
Citation :
Si nou fè rechech, na p wè Lang Brezilyen an swiv menm chemen kote Kreyòl ayisyen pase pou toulede lang sayo rive kote yo ye jodya.

Toudabò, nou fè gwo diskisyon sou kreyòl men moun pa janm panse pou konpare 2 lang sa yo.

Gen moun ki konpran ke lang brezilyen yo pale a se mem lang ki pale Potigal.
Se pa vre non.
Distans ant 2 lang sa yo apeprè menm bagay ak distans ant Kreyòl e Franse.

Istorikman, yo devlope memjan anba kolonizasyon potigè epi yo toulede sibi menm enfliyans lingistik lòt kilti ki te lan peyi sayo.
Pi gwo pwen an komen se enfliyans afriken nan toulede lang yo sibi.
Se sa pa ekzanp ki bay ni Ayiti ni Brezil mo "bounda" a.


Men pati ke mwen pa dakò an:

Gen moun ki konpran ke lang brezilyen yo pale a se mem lang ki pale Potigal.
Se pa vre non.
Distans ant 2 lang sa yo apeprè menm bagay ak distans ant Kreyòl e Franse.




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MessageSujet: Re: An nou konpare devlopman ak evolisyon Potigè Brezilyen avèk Kreyòl Ayisyen   Ven 1 Oct 2010 - 1:07

Men kwotasyon ki te deja poste men ki ta kapab mete yon limyè lan pawòl saa.


Differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese

Brazilian and European Portuguese are very far apart—from spelling to the use of
verb tenses and terminology. In many situations, the use of European Portuguese is unacceptable to Brazilians, and vice-versa.

The choice of words can be completely different and sometimes "laughable."
This is specially true when it comes to technical texts, where even the choices of "imported" words are different.

A Brazilian person can read a book or hear an interview on the radio, but that is the extent of the use of European Portuguese in Brazil.

In Portugal, Brazilian Portuguese would carry a lot of "mistakes" and awkward word choices and may often be considered an uncultured variation of the European form.

If we are talking about a couple of lines in a packaging (contents, or regulatory info),
you could probably use one translation—but you should remember that regulations vary from country to country.

If your product is targeted to a specific market niche or widespread use, you should have two translations. Another fact to consider is national pride, that is, the response of a consumer to a product that is obviously not directed to him/her.

The good news is that in most subject matters you can have a text translated for one target country and then edited (localized/adapted) for another.

The bad news is that this is not a very cost efficient solution; Brazilian and Portuguese translators would rather translate "from scratch" than edit a text translated for another market, since the changes are usually very extensive, and the time required for the task might be longer than the time required to do a normal editing.

The relevance of the difference between the two forms of Portuguese doesn't apply
to all situations.

José Saramago, for instance, is considered a great writer in any of the Portuguese speaking countries
(there are eight: Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal,
S. Tomé and Príncipe, and East Timor).

The more formal the language, the easier to understand it in another Portuguese speaking country; but make no mistake, there is NO such thing as standard Portuguese


than edit a text translated for another market, since the changes are usually
very extensive, and the time required for the task might be longer than the time required to do a normal editing.

The relevance of the difference between the two forms of Portuguese doesn't apply
to all situations.

José Saramago, for instance, is considered a great writer in any of the Portuguese speaking countries
(there are eight: Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal,
S. Tomé and Príncipe, and East Timor).

The more formal the language, the easier to understand it in another Portuguese speaking country;
but make no mistake, there is NO such thing as standard Portuguese.
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