Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti
Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti
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Forum Haiti : Des Idées et des Débats sur l'Avenir d'Haiti

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 Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida

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Super Star
Super Star

Nombre de messages : 8252
Localisation : Canada
Opinion politique : Indépendance totale
Loisirs : Arts et Musique, Pale Ayisien
Date d'inscription : 02/03/2007

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle: Maestro

Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida Empty
MessageSujet: Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida   Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida EmptyVen 12 Sep 2008 - 12:39

Origin of Aids, e-mails forwarded:
I am sending this to two or three groups and peoples in our Network for some input.
Sometimes I get things because the writer wants to trip us up. Sometimes, we suspect, its the Langley folks or their surrogates. Other times we get info from folks with genuine interest in giving us relevant information to help empower Haitians and cut down the colonial narrative on Haiti.
The sender here is a medical doctor and is credible from our previous dealings and has legitimate expertise on the aids issue. Not sure what to make of the conversation forwarded.

There are references made to matters I am not familiar with.
Like the UN head assassinated and other things.
But then that's why I run this Network.
Men anpil chay pa lou....(Many hands make light a heavy load).

So, if you see any relevance or find any insights in the origin of aids in Haiti from the conversation noted below between the writer, Douglas, and CIA official, Crowley, educate us all.

Time constraints makes it so I've not checked the link provided.

If you have the time and inclination, do so and let us know your thoughts.
As always the message not the names of our informants are relevant here.
Even if this triggers no discussion, at the end of the day, keeping the information to ourselves, doesn't help forward the counter-narrative about Haiti Ezili's HLLN is dedicated to exposing.
Especially now as we watch so many naive Haitians believing that the US NGOs and charitable institutions will use the monies collected for the storm victims to rebuilt Gonaive.

That's as productive as African-American bourgeoisie believing that the US Federal Government, FEMA and its subcontractors will bail out the storm survivors of Katrina three years ago and rebuilt New Orleans for these black folks to go back to!!!!!
It's very sad for us to observe these Haitian professionals all running around licking USAID's boots and Catholic Relief Services, Red Cross, et al...not understanding at all the complicity of these NGO in containing Haiti in poverty and counting on Haiti's pain to constantly pay their salaries and fill their pockets.
Always leaving no infrastructure,no amelioration of the conditions, but worse and rampant dependency.

The e-mail below resonated today because the use of Haitians as laboratory rats is not suprising, nor is it astonishing to those of us who know the mindsets talking below that the four storms reducing the population of "diseased, ugly, backwards and un-assimilated" Blacks of Haiti will be helped along by those hurrying down there right now to "help."

When Haitians abroad actually understand this, they'll know why, organizations,such as Yele Haiti, funded by USAID will not be rebuilding Gonaive, but put a band aid on it until the cameras go away.
Why the US ship sent to Gonaives by President Bush still cannot reach Gonaives when our HLLN friends in Haiti found ways to reach Gonaives and we have no humvees, amphibious units or helicopters!!!

Why, the newspapers keep writing that the key (Mirebalais) bridge to Gonaive from Port au Prince was 'washed out" when it was actually hit by some containers dislodged out of the UN base at Mirebalais.

Not on purpose but it proves how the useless UN presence in Haiti may have compounded the hurricanes' destruction just as the 2004 Bush coup d'etat left a fragment government for today and destroyed key community infrastructures and resources that could have helped with a better response to the storms.

Either way, the de-population of Haiti continues. The saddest part is how Haitian intellectual abroad and in Haiti still is hoping to get money from the US or some NGO white savior to save Haiti!!!!

The self reliance that HLLN teaches is termed "radical and ungrateful." And the beat goes on.

If we were not powerful and ancient Ginen, we wouldn't still be here, calm and poise with a different vision for change and leadership. Pressing on.
Ginen Pose.
Ezili Danto
Sept. 11, 2008


Begin forwarded message:

From: KN
Date: September 10, 2008 12:27:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: possibly of interest to you --- CIA and? Haitian origin of AIDS???
Haitian HIV experiments??

Dr. WWW,
Good points you make about Haiti. Still, the compelling part for me was the idea that perhaps the original virus was created for nefarious purposes, but then mutated naturally into what we have today.

Yes, of course you may forward the info. I took it directly from, so it's already public domain, so to speak.

Take care, and keep up the great work. Hopefully someday this riddle will be solved, and the disease cured, once and for all.


On Sep 10, 2008, at 4:09 PM, WWW wrote:
Hi KN: An interesting conversation --- certainly provocative when it comes to AIDS and its origin.
I have NEVER quite understood the "Haitian connection" to AIDS --- I don't think ANYONE has adequately explained it. Personally, I SUSPECT that there was some experimentation with the HIV virus around the same time that gays were infected with HIV via the hep B experiments (1978-1981).

The FIRST cases of AIDS were really uncovered in young white gay males in Manhattan (in 1979) and PRECEDE any PROVEN Haitian or African cases.

It seems to me if HIV STARTED in Haiti (no real evidence for this) -- it would NOT have ended up as a predominantly WHITE HOMOSEXUAL disease initially - instead if would have started ALSO among blacks, Haitian-Americans and women.

Furthermore because HIV is an STD -- it would have initially involved both heterosexual AND homosexuals -- ("cheap") "black cock" in Haiti is NOT EXCLUSIVE to white/black male homosexuals ---- as the reported conversation below neglects to mention.

I thank you for sharing this published material.

Can I send it/ forward it on to others who have interest in the origin of AIDS? --
or would you prefer I keep it CONFIDENTIAL.

Please let me know.

Many thanks,

On Sep 10, 2008, at 11:34 AM, KN wrote:
Dear WWW,
You might remember me from a previous correspondence last year. Anyway, I came across this interesting tidbit this morning while reading a series of alleged conversations between former CIA official Robert Trumbull Crowley (RTC) and writer Gregory Douglas (GD), author of "Regicide,"
a book about the JFK assassination.

The conversations have been published by the website If their contents are factual, they could help clear up the origin of AIDS.

I hope all is well with you, and that you find this information useful.


Date: Tuesday, August 6, 1996
Commenced: 11:10 AM CST
Concluded: 11:47 AM CST

GD: Ah, good morning to you, Robert. How is life treating you today?
RTC: Good morning, Gregory. There are good days and bad days. I’m not sure about today.
GD: Certainty is illusion, Robert. I was talking to an old friend of mine last night. He’s down at Norfolk. Was Navy but retired. I went to school with him. King’s Point and then the NSG.
RTC: King’s Point is Merchant Marine.
GD: I know. They have a reserve commission and they can activate it if they want to. He did.
Nuclear vessels surface and then the NSG. He was the Naval Attaché in the Dominican Republic.
Worked on the Trujillo assassination. But that’s not the issue now.
We got to talking about AIDS and since he had quite a bit of sherry, he told me quite a story about how that originated. I thought you might have some input on that. Want me to go on?
RTC: Why not?
GD: Well, according to him, the Navy had an experimental medical station down in Haiti. They were down there because there was a huge pool of very poor locals they could use as subjects in tests. He said that they were developing something that would lower a person’s resistance to
the point where a common cold would put them out of action for weeks.

RTC: Go on. What then?
GD: Well, they hit on a virus that does this, experimented with the locals and when they were sure it actually worked, somehow they got this into local whores whom the Cuban government then shipped over to Angola to service their volunteers fighting there.

RTC: I’ve heard stories about that.

GD: But somehow, the virus mutated into something far more serious. The HIV thing. And they didn’t care if all the Cubans died, or the whores either, but it seems that some the younger Haitians got this and when American gays made excursions down there for some cheap black cock, they got it too and you can see where that went. Then, my friend said, after they found out what
had gone wrong, the Navy shut down its facility, disposed of their volunteer locals by taking them out on boats and dumping them into the water. Anyway, that’s what he said and I believe him.
That’s what I wanted to ask you about.

RTC: There is something to that. Your friend had best be very quiet or he’ll end up taking a one-way boat trip. And I would be careful not to put any of that into one of your books.
If you take my drift.

GD: No, it wouldn’t fit in with the Mueller material. It is true, then?

RTC: Basically it is. Take note that it didn’t start out to kill off all the homos although the Christians thought it was a wonderful thing, but your friend was right when he said it mutated. I was never in that part of the agency but one hears things or talks to colleagues.
I mean there was only the intention to interfere with the combat capabilities of enemy troops, not liquidate social outcasts. When we learned about this, the burn bags were used overtime at Langley.

GD: Were you people part of it?
RTC: In a sense. The Navy supplied the tactical and we supplied the strategic. They produced the weapon and we, the targets. We were planning to use this on the Russians.

GD: Well, I know something about that aspect. You know about General Ishi?

RTC: Oh yes, I do indeed.

GD: His Japanese military units had a BW lab up in Manchuria and they used to develop the plague and God knows what else. Poisoned thousands of Chinese, wanted to loose the plague against their Russian neighbors and used Allied pows as lab specimens. Most of them died of plague and other nasty things.

RTC: Ah, the redoubtable Dr. Ishi. After we took over Japan, he was caught along with his staff and they were planning to try him for very ugly war crimes but MacArthur, acting on specific orders from the Pentagon, rescued him, set him with a big lab in Tokyo and back they went to developing the bubonic plague.
I guess they were going to use it on the Russians if all else failed.

GD: That I know all about. Not the Japanese but using the plague against the Russians. There was a German Army doctor, a Dr. Walter Schreiber, who was a specialist in communicable diseases. He developed a form of the plague and the military used it to clean out the overcrowded Russian pow cages. Cost too much to feed and guard them. The rationale was that they never used
them in the West.
Roosevelt, as you might know, was planning to use mustard gas against the Germans in Russia until the Bari raid blew up a boat-full of mustard gas and when Hitler learned of this, he threatened to let nerve gas loose on London and Washington.
Amazing how quickly FDR backed off.

RTC: You do your homework, don’t you?
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Super Star
Super Star

Nombre de messages : 8252
Localisation : Canada
Opinion politique : Indépendance totale
Loisirs : Arts et Musique, Pale Ayisien
Date d'inscription : 02/03/2007

Feuille de personnage
Jeu de rôle: Maestro

Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida Empty
MessageSujet: Re: Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida   Relations entre Politique, CIA et le Sida EmptyVen 12 Sep 2008 - 12:39

GD: Oh yes. Schreiber came over to us in Berlin after the war and we vetted him and sent him to San Antonio to set up a lab there to cultivate the plague. Again, we planned to use it against the Russians. I don’t know what the Russians did to infuriate our sacred leaders but I don’t think they would have deserved that.
Schreiber got ousted and had to be shipped back to Germany.

RTC: Drew Pearson was the man who did that.

GD: Whatever. Well, the Brits practiced BW when they gave the Indians smallpox laced blankets back in the eighteenth century but Mueller and I were discussing Schreiber’s project.
Mueller was very angry when he heard this and rounded Schreiber up. Had to let him go.
Orders from on high. Mueller said that there were no customs agents at the borders to stop the spread of such filthiness right back from whence it came.
But he told me about a CIA plan to ruin the Asian rice crop.
That failed but only barely. It would have spread and ruined everyone’s rice crop. He said that creatures that dabbled in such things should be shot out of hand or they would destroy everyone, good or bad.

I suppose the definition of good or bad depends on your politics but the whole thing should be forbidden by law.

RTC: I believe it is but only in theory.

GD: But they put the story out that AIDS came from monkeys in Africa and other funny stories.

RTC: Well, now it’s raging in Africa and they estimate that in ten years, everyone there will be infected. Of course, there is something to be said about depopulating Africa.
They’re a bunch of incompetents who are sitting on very valuable natural resources, such as gold and uranium and when they all die, the treasures are there for the finding.

GD: That’s a bit cynical but true. But what about the American homosexuals?

RTC: The Christians and the far right would be in favor of exterminating them all. However, that having been said, we would lose so many really valuable public servants, not to mention all the florists and interior decorators.

GD: Thank God I’m not a Christian. They’re such filthy bigots. If they ever get into power here, I’ll move to some cleaner place.

RTC: I don’t see that happening, Gregory.

GD: I have no problems with the mainline faiths but the extremists are flat out nuts and we don’t need that rampant and fanatical bigotry.

RTC: But it could be useful.

GD: But you can’t really control it. I’ve known a few Jesus freaks and believe me, they are as nutty as they come. Most of them try to hide if from us sane ones but once in a while, it leaks out. It would be entertaining if the head of the Navy’s medical branch caught AIDS from his cousin or how about the DCI?

RTC: Now, now, Gregory, you must realize that accidents happen. Try not to be too judgmental about such things.

GD: It’s bloody difficult not to.

RTC: Look, Africa is full of people who are only a generation or two out of the jungle. They ran out the white people, who set up the business structure, and now they are running around with spears, eating each other. Why be concerned if they pass away and give the civilized part of the world access to their unused natural resources?
After all, that’s why we killed off the head of the UN. He was interfering with the uranium business in the Congo so we had a little aircraft accident. We basically shot him out of the air.

And that put an end to his meddling in important matters.
Uranium, I don’t need to remind you, is vital for our weapon’s programs. Balance that against one meddling Swede and I don’t think there’s much of a problem.

GD: Well, for him…

RTC: Against the common good? You need to consider the practical priorities, Gregory. Believe me, we had no intention of causing AIDS. Our goal was to render a battlefield enemy incapable of combat, that’s all. These things sometimes happen and there is no reason at all to dwell on
unexpected and certainly not planned consequences.

GD: Ah, remember that Lenin once said you can’t make an omelets without breaking some eggs.
Of course it didn’t originate with him and I know it won’t end there but you take the point because you articulate it.
But I have to agree with Mueller when he tore into such projects. And if you know the Bible, remember that he who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword.
Wars once were conducted by gentlemen with a certain amount of civility but those days are gone.
Democracy, not kings, now rules and civility is dead.

RTC: You sound like a monarchist, Gregory.

GD: In many ways I am, Robert. I recall my German grandfather saying that democracy was
government of the mentally misfit by the mentally mediocre and tempered by the saving grace of
Grandfather was usually right I remember once at one of his formal family dinners when one of
my idiot aunts was going on about her constant attendance at the local Methodist church and her
choir practices. My grandfather turned to me and told me, so the whole table could hear, that I
ought to take a lesson in piety from my aunt.
I recall saying, and I am not being funny here, that it seemed to me that there was considerable
madness in aunt’s Methodism.

RTC: Did you actually say that, Gregory?

GD: Yes, and I was only ten, Robert.

RTC: Your family must have loved you.

GD: I don’t actually think so. When Grandfather said at some other occasion that my aunt and
uncle were going to Lower Asbury Avenue, I said that they certainly would if they lived there
long enough.

RTC: (Laughter) You must have been a most unpleasant child, Gregory.

GD: I do not suffer fools gladly, Robert. Lincoln has been misquoted. He said, or is supposed
to have said, that God must love the common people because he made so many of them. What he
actually said was that God must love fools because he had made so many of them.

RTC: Now you can see why our organization is so necessary. Imagine leaving state policy in the
hands of idiots.

GD: Point of view here Robert. Whose ox is gored? Destroying the Asian rice crop? Thousands or
millions dead of starvation?

GTC: But consider the common good. These are Communists, Gregory, and they want to destroy our

GD: Another point of view once more, Robert. Yes, abstract Communism is utopian nonsense, just
like abstract Christianity is. No one wants to work to help others but they will help themselves.
But that still does not justify slaughtering millions, does it?

RTC: But that is a very extreme and certainly tainted view, Gregory.

GD: Again, it’s the gored ox. But civilized people can disagree with each other and still
remain civilized, Robert. Right?

RTC: I assume so but let’s try to be a bit more objective. You need to view the larger

GD: Mueller said it so well to me once, just before one of my nice French dinners.
He said that morals and ethics were excellent norms but hardly effective techniques.

RTC: Those sentiments I can agree with.

GD: A difference without much a distinction. Well, enough moralizing here. I’m glad to see
that my naval friend was not just engaging in drunken babble.

RTC: I would strongly urge you not to take this issue any further. I would be concerned about
your safety if you did.

GD: A point well taken. As a cross between a social Darwinist and a monarchist, even I can see
the perils of contemplating moral issues from a neutral point of view.

RTC: And if you felt like giving me your talkative friend’s name and address, it might be
appreciated. He ought to be spoken to.

GD: I doubt that I would want to do that, Robert. After all, I have never discussed our
conversations with anyone else.

RTC: Point taken.

(Conversation concluded 11:47 AM CST)
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