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 eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?

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Marc-Henry
Rodlam Sans Malice
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 3 Déc 2008 - 22:23

Rappel du premier message :

Se youn nan bagay ke anpil konsèvatè , reyaktyonè ak gwo manjè toujou ap di men ki pa janm vre.mwen sonje sou Clinton kongrè ya te ogmante salè minimum lan epi ekonomi ya te mache byen.

mwen tap li yon komantè yon ekonomis ayisyen fè sou demann ke Preval fè pou ogmante salè minimum ouvriye an ayiti.li di ke demann sa pral kreye yon ralentisman nan envestisman an ayiti.paske envestisè yo ap konsidere lot kote.Mezanmi nan yon peyi ki pa genyen sendika eske se pa gouvenman an ki pou di yon bagay pou malere?ki patwon ayisyen ki genyen konsyans menm si li tap fè 100% sou envetisman li chak ane ki pral ogmante salè minimum ouvriyé yo?Si se patron yo pou gouvenman ap tann pou fè sa yo met tou di ouvriye yo nap kontinye manje biskwit labou pou lontan.naje pou nou soti tankou preval di ya.

mwen konprann kritik ekonomis lan kont minis finans lan men zafè di ke ogmntatyon salè minimum pa dwe fet koulyè ya se bobinn.Si jan pri tout bagay ap ogmante youn moun jwen moyen di ke youn moun ki ap travay 10 è pa jou pa dwe touche plis pase 70 goud an ayiti ou mechan.Kote benefis ke patwon yo fè eske genyen yon sendika ki ka voye je sou liv kontab antrepriz yo. eske ekonomis la fè audit nan konpayi yo poul konnen ki benefis yo fè sou pwodwi ke yo vann nan peyi etranje yo?Gade sa ki ap pase nan indistri ortomobil o Zeta Zuni 3 konpayi an fayit PDG ou CEO ap touche 20 milyon dola pa ane ,yo genyen konbyen jet prive konpayi yan nan disposition.

Si nan kondityon peyi sa ye jodya youn isinn pa ka peye yon ouvriyé uyon sale ki pemet li manje ak fanmi li e byen yo met fèmen yo.Se pa pase mwen nan frechè ki fè map di sa non ,menm si m te an ayiti mwen pa tap travay poum pa ka manje.mwen te met mouri ak tout pitit mwen yo.sa pou ekonomis lan te di se pou gouvenman ayisyen genyen yon politik fiskal ki pemet li jwen lajan pou li envesti nan lagrikilti, nan tourism ,nan agro bizniss konsa travayè ayisyen pap depann de youn paket inkonsyan esklavajis modern.Se pou gouvenman envesti nan indistri ki pwodwi byen ak servis pou pep la konsa to enflatyon a ralenti.a genyen manje a gogo, dlo a gogo, lekol a gogo, swen sante a bon mache.kay a bon mache.fok prodiktyon natyonal la ogmante tou.men se pa kenbe ouvriye ak yon salè miserab ki fè tiberkiloz ap touye yo ke patwon yo pral ogmante pwodiktyon natyonal e vinn envesti plis nan peyi ya.Menm si yo vinn eksplwate esklav yo ki sa sa itil peyi ya?Yo sot pran twa zan san yo pa peye taks eske yo envesti lajan nan peyi ya?

mwen tande menm ze se achte nap achte sa nan men dominiken ,nou vle dim si mesye ki kontwole ekonomi ayisyen yo te genyen bonn volonte e yo te renmen peyi ya yo pa ta ka kreye konpayi tankou Tyson food, kraft, Nestle,Mosanto etc pou lage manje nan peyi ya.Kote konpayi konstriktyon yo kreye ki pou bati kay a ba pri pou ouvriye rete?kote pansyon de vyeyes yo genyen pou ouvriye>mwen konnen genyen youn ki te deja dim se poum desann an ayiti pou vinn peye ouvirye 5 dola pa jou.dapre li mwen dwe fèmen dyol mwen kite li souse san ouvriye ayisyen .mwen pa konnen sim ta ka peye yo 5 dola pa jou men se youn sel bagay mwen konnen sim ta genyen yon biznis ki pa ka pemet mwen peye ouvriye yon salè ki pou pemet yo manje e byen mwen tap fout fèmen li.

se pa pou Preval selman mande pou patwon ogmante salè minimum men tou se pou li koupe nan depans leta yo pou genyen sipli nan bidjè ya ki ka pemet gouvenman kreye anplwa pou ouvriye ayisyen pa beswen al fè esklavajis etranje eksplwate yo.
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 6:51

Alo, se tann w ap tann peyi bon, pou w envesti nan stok ? ...e moun yo menm ki nan peyi a anba menas kidnapè yo? chimè yo..Se tann w ap tann pou bourik travay pou chwal ka galonnen ?

Anplis se pa yon kesyon ke m pa vle pou yo jwenn yon salè desan. Se yon kesyon de nou menm Ayisyen kisa nou ka garanti yon envestisè potansyèl si li garanti ouvriye nou yo ?
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 8:30

Thunder a écrit:
Wi ! ...prensip demokratik yo se pou moun ki pap rele "viv Aristide" sèlman ke yo la? Paske se pèp ki te vote w, wou genyen lisans pou w fè sa w vle? Wou panse nou ap ka twonpe pèp sa a chak jou ?

Si genyen moun ki retabli esklavaj pi fon toujou konn se demagog lavalas yo. Se sou rèy pa yo ke ouvriye faktori vini pli mal. Nou konprann se mete yon pil lajan, ki pa menm vo papye ke yo printe l la, nan men yon malerèz epi nou panse nou soulaje doulè l ? Moun ki te konn touche 5 gdes sou rejim anvan yo te pli byen ke lè yo vinn ap touche 36 gdes sou lavalas.

Se pou yon sèl bagay mwen konnen nou pwop... se pa janm nou menm lavalas se toujou zot, lè sa pa bon.

Titid te fè yon erè, li pat gen dwa de fakto eseye ogmante salè minimum nan. Misie pat konprann equasyon an bien.
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 8:51

Ou genyen rezon di se pa mete anpil zorey bourik nan men malere ki di ou soulaje l; men ki les ki responsab ke la vi vinn chè konsa?depi ki lè prodiktyon agrikol la komanse bese epi ayisyen kontinye ap kale ti moun tankou la pen? ki mezi gouvenman yo pran pou kontwole kwasans demografik.ou pa beswen genyen PHD an ekonomi pou konprann equatyon ofre e demand la;depi ki lè peyisan ayisyen ap kite tè yo pou yo rantre vinn bay ochan nan Port-au-prince epi yo pa janm tounnen ankor al travay tè?inflatyon se pa lavalas selman ki kreye li.Pou lajan an genyen valè fok prodiktyon nantyonal la ogmante tou.Men nou pa ba lavalas la yon souf poul retabli productivite ke nou ap pale ya.

pou yon gouvenamn kreye bon wout, bon port sekirite ,bon servis dwann fok lajan leta pa servi pou depose nan bank swiss.fok entreprenè dakor pou yo peye taks yo regilyèman san twonpe fisk la.se pa pou yo ofri yon ti grangou kontribityon yon lè malte ak yon sandwich pou yo achte li lè li vinn kontwole liv kontab antrepriz yo.Se pou komersan peye bordro dwann yo kom sa dwe fet san chache koromp anploye la dwann yo.Wi fok Presidan sispann foure men yo nan kes piblik pou regle zafè politik yo konsa reset leta a envesti nan infrastrikti ki pou pemet peyi ya devlope.

men se pa rele yon paket esklavajis ki depi anvan yo rantre mande yon paket avantaj san ke yo pa pral itilise matyè premyè ki nan peyi ,yo pap pral pwodwi pou konsomatyon lokal la, yo pap pral peye ouvriye yon salè pou di yo ka tounen yon faktè nan devlopman peyi ya ak pouvwa dacha yo epi esklavajis yo pa pral kite pwofi yo nan bank nan peyi ya.Se pou nou dim ki enpotans manifakti sa yo pral genyen nan ogamntatyon vrè GNP peyi dayiti.o mwen Standard, fruit, Shada , hasco, mac Donald te itilise matyè premyè nan peyi ya ;lè yo te konn ap peye ouvriye 3 goud pa jou se 5 goud ki te vo yon dola, yon fanmi te ka manje yon pla manje ak 2 goud.li te ka lwe yon chanb kay pou 10 goud pa mwa.se te selman 2 milyon ayisyen ki te genyen.peyi ya te ka still pwodwi ase manje pou 2 milyon moun.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 10:02

fok yon moun se grenn pwomennen nan chak depatman nan peyi ya pou korije kreyol yon moun ekri.Lè mwen ekri:"mwen tap li": li pa nesesèman yon fot non paske nan nor se konsa nou fome imparfè ,wè tan verb la ki indike yon bagay ki tap kontinye nan pase.de jou an jou nap konnen ekri pi byen.
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 10:26

Citation :
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?

Repons lan se "Sa depand" de si nou mete politik de kote e analize kestion sa depi nan tê jist nan pyè.

Sale’r minimum se Leta ki dekrete’l e piblye’l e se apre anpil kalkil ke Leta fe e deside ke sale’r sa kap attire investise, memm si li pakab pou le moman bay yon fanmi manje bwe, peye lwaye, lekol etc..


Sale’r minimum sa oken investise’r etranje ou lokal pa gen dwa peye yon ouvrye yon sale’r pi ba ke sa.

Yo kab bay plis si yo vle, men bay mwens ap yon violasyon dwa travay nan peyi a.

Si sale’r minimum nan se $2.00 nan peyi d’Ayiti, anpil investise ap di ke sale’r sa tro ba e pap vinn nan peyi d’Ayiti pou aktivist liberal pa vinn di ke yo se esklavajist e se explwate ke yo vinn explwate pep la e yo pavle avili repitasyon yo.

Men sepandan si Leta fixe sale’r minimum nan tro ho, investise etranje e lokal pral voye bizniss yo nan lot peyi.

Yon bagay ki inpotan nan investisman se lonjevite, bizniss a longterm, yon relation ekonomik e sosyal avek yon pep yon peyi.
Nou kap pran kom exzanp DIGICEL ki se yon konpany ki investi nan employe’l yo e patisipe nan vie sosyal pep la.
Se pa fanatic DIGICEL ke’m ye, se jist yon observation.
Plen lot konpany konkou DIGICEL nan peyi a.

Anpil konpany nan peyi Aziatik yo ta remen investi nan peyi d’Ayiti paske transportation machandiz yo tap koute yo meye mache.

Pou yon kontene’r machandiz soti China, ou byen Taiwan poul passe pa Canal Panama pou distribition fet nan tout l’Amerik la, sa kap pran 3 a 4 semenn plis anpil lajan gazolin.

Si konpany Aziatik sa yo etabli an Ayiti, depans sevis lojistik e transpotation yo ap koupe a plis ke 80%.

Donk Ayiti déjà gagnan dapre pozition geografik li e se sa pou Leta kontanple e reflechi sou sa, e pran avantaj de sa.

Sa investise etranje sa yo bezwen se yon environman approprye pou biznis yo fonktione e resortisan employe etranje e lokal yo evolye san ke sote.

Yo bezwen, lojman, dlo elektrisite, kominikation, bank, transpotation, lekol e swen medikal pou pitit yo ak fanmi yo e kontantman e satisfaktion nan ke pep la.

Yo bezwen pou konntene’r machandiz yo entre e soti san grate têt.

Yo bezwen sekirite pou employee resortisan etranje e lokal yo evolye nan yon milye ekonomik kip a gen koription ni intimidation.

Anpil konpany serye se repitation yo keyo vle proteje e yo dispose peye yon sale’r pi ho ke sale’r Leta a.

Etabli yon sale’r minimum de $2.00 dolla se pa sa kap attire bizniss.
O kontre, sa kap bay lot ti peyi vwazin nou yo e le mond antye repignans e dekoutans.

Nou konn tre byen sa pou’n fe si nou vle etranje vinn lakay nou.

Wi kê'm sere le mwen achte yon chemiz pou $25.00 a $30.00 dolla nan yon magazin nan peyi blan e mwen we ke etiket chimiz la se "made in Haiti"Fabrique en Haiti".

Wi $2.00 minimum sale'r sa tro piti e blan ta bay plis toujou si dirijan nou yo trete pep li pi byen.

Revelasyon
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 15:21

Si se vre yon ogmantatyon de kelke santim ou byen menm de yon dola sou 2 dola ke yap peye yo fè entreprenè yo kouri e byen se pa anyen serye yo tap vinn regle pou ayisyen.ke yo fout ale lot kote.nanpren esklavaj ki ap rekomanse ankor an ayiti.Yon moun ki ap travay e ki pa ka manje ni peye yon chanm kay poul rete se yon esklav.Se yon wont ke genyen ayisyen ki ap ankouraje bagay saa.Poukisa yo pa rete kanada ou byen o Zeta Zuni pou fè kanadyen ak ameriken travay san ke yo pa ka manje?Petet moun ki ap di ke se konsa pou devlopman an fet ya fè yon kout travay pou 2 dola pa jou tou o kanada ou byen nan mississipi.

Se yon mank de charite e de konpasyon pou yon moun ap mande pou yo peye w yon salè ki pemet ou ka manje ak fanmi w,peye lekol pou pitit w,mennen yo ka doktè le yo malad epi pou ap mande ke yo peye yon ouvriye an ayiti 2 dola pa jou menm si konpayi sa yo ap vann pwodwi ke ouvriye sa yo kreye 25 dola pa chemiz.
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 17:07

Citation :
Rod di: Si se vre yon ogmantatyon de kelke santim ou byen menm de yon dola sou 2 dola ke yap peye yo fè entreprenè yo kouri e byen se pa anyen serye yo tap vinn regle pou ayisyen.ke yo fout ale lot kote.nanpren esklavaj ki ap rekomanse ankor an ayiti.

Sale’r minimum yon peyi se gouvenman ki fixe sa!!
Investise konsyan e serye pavle repitation yo ni mamb ni klyan konpany vinn mele nan zafe aktivist kankou’w kap vinn di ke se esklavajist ke yo ye.

Vye resonman elemante popilist sa yo pa a la mod anko.

Citation :
Rod di : Se yon mank de charite e de konpasyon pou yon moun ap mande pou yo peye w yon salè ki pemet ou ka manje ak fanmi w,peye lekol pou pitit w,mennen yo ka doktè le yo malad epi pou ap mande ke yo peye yon ouvriye an ayiti 2 dola pa jou menm si konpayi sa yo ap vann pwodwi ke ouvriye sa yo kreye 25 dola pa chemiz.
Wou ap pale de charite e de konpasyon !!
Se sak fe ke se ONGs ke wou gen la kay nou olyè de investise.

Se byen malhere ke wou pa vle fe yon efo pou konprand sak kap passe nan peyi a.
Wou chita ap rele moun serye esklavajist.

Revelasyon
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 20:33

Revelatyon

wa sonje ke se anbasadè ameriken yan menm ki te di si esklavajis yo pa ogmante salè ouvriye yo li ap fè lot antreprenè jwen kontra sa yo.Nou renmen tout bon bagay pou nou; men yon lot met mouri tiberkile.se nou ki pou toujou ap meprise yo;di yo se gwo zortey ,moun bet men ki lekol nou te bati pou yo te konn li? jodya nap fè yo travay tankou bourik menm fout manje yo pa ka ba pitit yo manje mwen pa beswen di w pou yo te ka voye yo lekol.Tankou Premye Minis la di ya fok genyen yon revolutyon economik ,kiltirel e sosyal ki fet an ayiti.pou fè moun tankou w yo rekonet ke yon èt imen se pa yon robo.li genyen beswen manje, sante, edikatyon, sosyal ke li dwe satisfè.Se nan vle tout pou nou an ki fè pafwa nou pèdi tout.ki fè yo te koupe tet Marie Antoinette an frans.ki fè Dessalines te dekrete koupe tet boule kay la.Tout priyè genyen yon amen.fok eksplwatatyon ouvriye ak peyisan fini yon jou an ayiti;fok nou fè atantyon pou pa genyen rel ka Makorel.Tout bet jennen mode.

de ki lakyel moun serye wa vinn pale m la;moun ki ap toupizi ouvriye ayisyen ;kote yap fè yo travay 10 è pa jou pou 2 dolla e si yo pa vle travay nan Ouanaminthe gad ap bat yo epi oui trouve mo esklavajis la pat dwe dekri moun serye w?mon chè revelatyon pale de sa w konnen tande ou janm nan plas ouvriye sa yo?ou janm pa ka ba pitit w manje?ou byen lekol ap ouvri epi ou pa konnen ki jan yo pral lekol.Mwen pa deja di nou mwen konn soufrans pep la anpil paske mwen te pataje soufrans sa pandan yon ti bout tan ak yo.

mwen ta renmen mete w an ayiti koulyè ya ak fanmi w epi mwent mete w travay nan faktori pou 2 dola pa jou?Nou ka radote net lè se pa nou ki nan grangou kloroks la.Ou kwè se fasil pou gade pitit zanmi w ki ap mouri paske li pa ka achte yon medikaman pou pitit li ni menm mennen li ka doktè.A ba tout inkonsyan movez fwa.


Dernière édition par Rodlam Sans Malice le Mer 17 Déc 2008 - 22:07, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 21:27

men pou ki sa colocolo oblije gen yon avatar konsa, mwen ka konprann yon white supremasis nan yon forum rasis gen yon avatar konsa. ou ka ap fe "satire", men monshe imaj intolerab nan forum kap taravay pou shanje idee moun. monshe, si se atensyon ou tap shashe ak avatar sa, ou jwenn li papa.
monshe mwen dezapwente nan ou monshe.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 21:35

OBSERVER KEEN a écrit:
men pou ki sa colocolo oblije gen yon avatar konsa, mwen ka konprann yon white supremasis nan yon forum rasis gen yon avatar konsa. ou ka ap fe "satire", men monshe imaj intolerab nan forum kap taravay pou shanje idee moun. monshe, si se atensyon ou tap shashe ak avatar sa, ou jwenn li papa.
monshe mwen dezapwente nan ou monshe.

OBSERVER KEEN,

Kenbe sèlman ke malgre sa ou di a, map toujou gen anpil admirasyon ak respè pou ou.

Mwen pap ka reponn ou sou komantè sa a paske mwen deside pa fè echanj pèsonèl ak lot mamb sou fowum nan.

Kenbe di!
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 22:10

pa genyen oken gagann ki ap voye la .nou tout se moun ki ka resone se pou nou pale nan respè.si keen mande w poukisa ou mete avata saa se pou dil poukisa; mwen konprann sa w vle montre ya ;li wè l yon lot jan.ou ka diskite ak li.chak moun ka enterprete zev yon atis selon eksperyans li.
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 22:13

Rodlam Sans Malice a écrit:
pa genyen oken gagann ki ap voye la .nou tout se moun ki ka resone se pou nou pale nan respè.si keen mande w poukisa ou mete avata saa se pou dil poukisa; mwen konprann sa w vle montre ya ;li wè l yon lot jan.ou ka diskite ak li.chak moun ka enterprete zev yon atis selon eksperyans li.

Malice,

Si misie te mande'm eksplikasyon, mwen tap bali li. Men li fè yon remak ke mwen twouve deplase.

De tout fason, mwen renmen komantè misie yo an jeneral e derapaj sa a pa pral rafredi
relasyon nou.

Si misie vle, li ka li siyati mwen e li va twouve yon repons.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyMer 17 Déc 2008 - 23:43

colocolo, in life, we do not analyze everything because we are not
machines. generally, i am not an emotional person, but i did find your
avatar bizarre to say the least. i was not trying to disrespect you in
any way; but you must have known that such a picture would have aroused
certain emotions otherwise you would not have chosen it because it is not the
most common type of avatar, and as such it cannot be chosen randomly without any hidden message. you have chosen it as a thought-
and-emotion-provoking avatar; therefore, you must be ready and willing
to accept whatever reaction it gets. now, if you intended to convey a philosophical view that the white man is still being carried by black men as it was in colonial times but in different forms of carriage, then you have a moral responsibility as a satirist to correct whatever interpretation that may be off the mark. my emotional reaction was appropriate, but it was rather your dismissal of my emotional reaction that was inappropriate. if you are in the satirical business, then you cannot afford to ignore or dismiss an emotional reaction to your art.
by the way, I still have respect for you and all the people that I have been communicating with!
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 11:22

For me the picture shows that slavery still exists even if it is not practiced the same way as in the 18th century.I think the message is clear in the context of the discussion.What is amazing is the disconnect between this picture and Colo's positions.To adhere to the concept that a low wage ;what did I say a no wage ,for one can not say that 2 dollars a day for 10 hours work is a wage ,is a mean to attract investors is an aberration of any economic ideology.

Colo is more intelligent than his writings on this subject suggest.he knows very well that a hungry worker can not produce any goods and services in a quantity enough to sustain the growth of the GNP.How can somebody making less than 700 dollars a year be an economic factor in a country?How many calories does a human being need to live?What quantity of food can a person buy in haiti today with 2 dollars ?Where does he suppose to sleep?on the sidewalk?What about his children;what do they have to eat ;mud cakes?

It is irresponsible,not to say wicked for somebody to treat a human being this way.There is no rational for this abject,humiliating behaviour.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 13:21

good intentions can lead to disasters if they are unrealistic. you are trying to link ethics too closely with economics. entrepreneurs do not have the same ethics as governments. for instance, governments cannot just get rid of non-productive members of society such as the severely challenged individuals; but businessmen should get rid of under-performing workers. you see, they live by different ethics. you seem to want to convert businessmen into responsible government officials.
sometimes the ideal will lead to disasters. take organic food for example. eating organic food is great for your biology, but if a government were to demand that all food be organic, then there would be famines from east to west because organic farming is unrealistic on a large scale, and as such is incapable of sustaining a large population. similarly, increasing minimum wage while simultaneously trying to attract investors may not be realistic. misplaced good intentions could end up worsening what they initially attempted to alleviate. remember, sequence matters in life. you cannot have sex, then put your condom on after and expect to be protected from std's. the point is that a Haitian government needs to tone down on the vocal call for minimum wages, and try to get whatever boodsucker it can get to haiti. why? whatever happens, haiti will benefit. if an entrepreneur builds a factory, and then refuses to increase wages;and if he or she leaves, then he or she would leave an infrastructure in Haiti that would be an established physical capital in the form of a building. also, in building that infrastructure, they would have hired local workers and so on. so, not mentioning minimum wage is very good for Haiti in trying to attract investors because life is a strategic game, one cannot just live by inflexible principles alone; because whatever happens, it will be a gain for Haiti if investors come and invest haiti. the sequence is this: get them to Haiti, get them to hire locals, and then after they are well established, we come with a reasonable wage increase. It cannot just be arbitrary. it has to be based on both the interests of the workers and the employers.


Dernière édition par OBSERVER KEEN le Jeu 18 Déc 2008 - 18:13, édité 1 fois
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eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 15:23

Review the history of coup d'etat in the Americas and you will understand the fallacy of your premises.Do you know why there is still an embargo against Cuba?Do you know why the Dominican army overthrew Juan Bosch?

Once these unscrupulous entreprenors establish their business in a country ;they corrupt the government and will take all necessary measures to protect their interests.It is not a bad idea to link economic with ethic principles.A business does not operate in a vacum;its behavior influences the society in which it functions.It is a contradiction for someone to be ethical and at the same time promote exploitation of workers in the third world countries.I am not against all entreprenors;I am against those who refuse to pay decent wages to their workers despite the benefits of the entreprise.

Those who invest their capitals and know how should receive the rewards they deserve,but those who work for the business to be prosperous should receive their fair share of the profits proportionnnaly to their contributions.That's all folks.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 16:58

Malice,

Men lis peyi kote ouvrie touche pi ba ke an Ayiti.

Se 3e chif la e li exprime an
international dollar.

Pa ekzanp Uganda, yon ouvrie fè 105
international dollar pa an.

Ayiti papi mal plase ke sa, sispann fè politik ak dosie sa a.
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Uganda.svg Uganda6,000 Ugandan shillings per month[4]10511N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Burundi.svg Burundi160 Burundian francs
per day for unskilled workers; in practice, most employers paid their
unskilled laborers a minimum of 1,500 Burundian francs per day[4]
11130N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg Tajikistan20 Tajikistani somoni per month[4]22212N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Georgia.svg Georgia115 Georgian lari a month for public employees; 20 lari a month for private sector workers[4]2876N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg Kyrgyzstan340 Kyrgyzstani som per month[4]30715N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_the_Central_African_Republic.svg Central African Republicset in the public sector by decree and varies by sector and by kind of work; for example, 8,500 CFA francs a month for agricultural workers; 26,000 CFA francs a month for office workers[4]38553N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Malawi.svg MalawiMK 97 per day for urban workers; MK 74 per day in all other areas[4]40752N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg Uzbekistan15,525 Uzbekistani som per month[4]42418N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Myanmar.svg Myanmar15,000 Myanma kyat a month for salaried public employees; 500 kyat per day for day laborers, supplemented by various subsidies and allowances[4]45544N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Sierra_Leone.svg Sierra Leone48,000 Sierra Leonean leones per month[4]46167N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo.svg Democratic Republic of the Congo500 Congolese francs per day[4]468152N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Togo.svg Togoranges from 10,000 to 16,000 CFA francs a month[4]52365N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Moldova.svg Moldova[outdated] 305 Moldovan lei a month for public sector employees and 708 lei for private sector employees[4]70024N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Eritrea.svg Eritrea360 Eritrean nakfa per month in the civil service sector[4]773100N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Lesotho.svg Lesotho252 maloti
per month for lower-skilled jobs such as domestic workers; 686 maloti
per month for textile machine operator trainees; 738 maloti per month
for textile general workers[4]
82965N/A
eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 22px-Flag_of_Haiti.svg Haiti70 Haitian gourdes a day[4]89970N/A


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 18:27

sans malice, you are right up to a certain point;but your economics sounds too much like theology. you have to be realistic, not just on what can be done, but on what others are willing to do since transactions are not unilateral. Haiti does not yet have leverage to demand these things. you are ignoring the dynamics of game strategy. the goal is for the government to think out of the box by reassessing everything and finding more efficient ways of getting results. the goal is to get the most out of what one gets. we have to think in a different way. you are trying to change the rules of economics; one cannot do that, one can only change the rules of governance or policy making. you are trying to change human psychology and human motivation, it is not going to work. we cannot force potential investors to come up with more wages as long as there are plenty alternatives for them to pick from or as along as our human capital is underdeveloped. take for example Georgia, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, these countries have a more developed human capital and more resources than Haiti, yet they have not managed to demand increase in working wages. take rwanda for example, it allowed foreign investors to invest almost tax free as long as the management is at least 50% local. it allowed them to write off social projects in their tax returns. for example, when a company builds a library, both the government and the company benefit. the company gets good will advertisement, and the public gets something without the governmental inefficiency and bureaucratic corruption that usually come with government-led projects.

I have on many occasions seeing people demanding everything from the government, from easier tests in school, to bridges, to hospitals, but no one realizes that there are not enough revenues at the present moment for all these things. there is something called costs of opportunity. In Haiti, it is not just the big shots that do not pay taxes, the professional class does not pay taxes either from lawyers, teachers to doctors. we have a tendency to concentrate only on the big shots, but the argument has to be taken to all that are concerned from the poorest to the richest. "mashan zoranj" will have to pay a small tax too, and those small taxes combined with taxes from the big shots will help reduce our dependence on international loans. also, the government will have to take drastic measures, for instance allowing a no-tax zone in return for employment quotas at all levels from management down to the janitors. how do you think Dubai became so rich?
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 18:57

You have to stop being a prisoner of the past my friend. you are a very good man with intelligence, passion ans compassion, but you are too fearful of the past. you have got to let the past political abuses go for us to move forward. we have to restore trust in one another for us to move ahead. for instance, to help integrate the big shots, we may need to stop looking at them as outsiders. we cannot expect them to assume their social responsibilities while questioning their legitimacy in the political sphere. it is a trade-off, if they have to be Haitians as social investors, then they must be sufficiently Haitians in all other endeavors. for instance, one cannot argue that Izmery was good to die for his people but not Haitian enough to lead his people.
We are both at fault in the Haitian drama, when you put someone on the fringe of national identity by expressing suspicion, then they tend to act accordingly. they tend to act as migratory outsiders. they need to assume their social and patriotic responsibilities, but we also need to smooth their integration as our true brothers and get rid of our prevalent suspicion.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 19:48

It is time to close this discussion as far as I am concerned.I tried my best to make you understand that it is not the nominal wage that a worker earns that is so important ;it is rather what that wage can buy.The tableau published by Colocolo is irrevelant as far as I am concerned because it does not show the wage in relation with the cost of living in these countries.

I am sure a worker in Zimbabwe makes a lot more than one in Uganda ,but what can the Zimbabwean buy with his or her salary?As the saying goes:it is not what you make that is important ;it is what you keep." to have a good evaluation of a minimum wage it has to be considered in a larger context:What can the wage earner buy with that money?What are the profits of the factory;What skills are required to perform the work.What is the cost of living in the country.?All these variables should be included in determining the minimum wage.

The goal of work is not to enrich a few by oppressing the majority of the people.The goal of work is to produce goods and services to satisfy the needs of the people.Can 2 dollars a day satisfy the needs of the workers?This is the question that you have to consider.Any other consideration is irrevelant. As far as I am concerned it is degrading for someone to make me work for 2 dollars a day in a country where the cost of living is almost the same as in the United sates or Canada. Go work for two dollars a day in haiti ,my brothers.Unitl you do that you can not convince me of your honesty and objectivity in this debate.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyJeu 18 Déc 2008 - 22:41

Rodlam Sans Malice a écrit:
It is time to close this discussion as far as I am concerned.I tried my best to make you understand that it is not the nominal wage that a worker earns that is so important ;it is rather what that wage can buy.The tableau published by Colocolo is irrevelant as far as I am concerned because it does not show the wage in relation with the cost of living in these countries.

Malice,

Ou pa ka ap batt tanbou a, epi wap danse li tou. Sa pa fèt!

Tablo sa a se jis pou di ou afè salè minimum nan pa dekri ki richès ak mwayen yon ouvrie genyen nan men li.

Gen anpil peyi kote ouvrie yo touche pi mal ke Ayiti, men ouvrie sa yo gen yon pi bèl vi ke ouvrie pa nou an.

Vrè pledwari a se kijan pou yon ouvrie rive genyen yon kay pou li viv, voye pitit lekol, asirans sante, elatriye...

Sou ang sa a, sijè a va pi bèl e se la tablo sa a vini pou mennen nou
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyVen 19 Déc 2008 - 11:46

what if part of the problem is the inefficiency of the state, so you want the employers to take that in consideration as part of their costs of production? let's say that part of the increased transportation fees come from the neglected roads. so, do you want the same inefficient state to make the employer pay for part of the increased transportation fee that is related to its own inefficiency as part of its wage-adjustment?
a big part of the cost of living in Haiti comes from the inefficiency of the state, when a worker has to buy candles, that increase in cost living is a result of the inefficiency of the state? when almost every parent needs to hire a tutor to help kids achieve in schools, that increase in cost of living comes from the inefficiency of the state; when a worker has to pay extra money for food, the problem is partially a result of the state inefficiency.
therefore, you have answered your own questions by suggesting that governmental policies have a lot to do with cost of living and that the nominal value of the currency is irrelevant since it is the real value that matters. we all agree with that. so, in essence, we do not have much in disagreement. it has been a case of mutual misunderstanding then.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyVen 19 Déc 2008 - 11:49

so, the state can the lower the cost of living by being more efficient which in effect will be equivalent to an increase in wages since such a condition will increase purchasing power. i want both the state and the employers to do their parts.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyVen 19 Déc 2008 - 12:35

Keen

You're right"Both the government and the employers have to play their partitions correctly in order for the economy to perform well.I am not blaming only the employers;I recognize the inefficiency of the government on many occasions.I do not care what the minimum wage is in Uganda or any where elese;the essential for me is what that wage can provide the worker to take care of his family.It is wicked for somebody to make a human being work for a salary that can not provide him or her with enough food to sustain his or her life.That is worst than slavery.
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MessageSujet: Re: eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik?   eske se vre ogmantatyon salè minimum ralanti kwasans ekonomik? - Page 2 EmptyVen 19 Déc 2008 - 20:02

Rodlam Sans Malice a écrit:
Keen

You're right"Both the government and the employers have to play their partitions correctly in order for the economy to perform well.I am not blaming only the employers;I recognize the inefficiency of the government on many occasions.I do not care what the minimum wage is in Uganda or any where elese;the essential for me is what that wage can provide the worker to take care of his family.It is wicked for somebody to make a human being work for a salary that can not provide him or her with enough food to sustain his or her life.That is worst than slavery.

Malice,

Sispann!

Ban mwen yon peyi sou latè kote moun kap touche minimum wage ka viv san pwoblem.

An nou ale Floride pou yon fanmi 4 moun: mari, madanm ak 2 timoun.

Ak $7 minimum wage, 7*40*4 == 1120 pou mari a, plis 1120 pou madan lan. Donk fanmi sa a genyen pa mwa $2240 avan tax. Apre tax, wap genyen preske $1800.

Yon apartman pou malere koute $700
Transport $600
Kouran, dlo, cable $300
Rad pou fanmi an $200


Total sa a gentan bay $1800. Donk fanmi sa a pa gen kob pou yo fè manje. San FOOD STAMP ak WIC, grangou tap touye yo.

Pou yon rezon kelkonk, wap dramatize pwoblem yo pou fè Ayiti parèt pi mal. Kelkeswa peyi nan mond lan, depi yon moun ap touche Minimum WAGES, ou pa foutu gen kob pou viv. Solysion an se pa bay ouvrie yo plis lajan men bay yo moyen pou ale lekol e avanse nan kariè yo.
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